IIC 165: Your Questions About IFS and Catholicism Answered

[00:00:00] Dr. Peter: “Most misunderstandings in the world could be avoided if people would simply take the time to ask, what else could this mean?” Shannon L. Alder. And Richard Feynman said, ” I would rather have questions that can’t be answered, than answers that can’t be questioned.” And then also, Charles Proteus Steinmetz said, “There are no foolish questions and no man becomes a fool until he has stopped asking questions.” Questions. Internal Family Systems, or IFS, grounded in an authentic Catholic understanding of the person, it can bring up questions, lots of them. And here at Souls and Hearts, here in the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, we want to hear your questions. And not just listen to your inquiries, but also to provide you solid answers. This parts and systems thinking, this way of conceptualizing ourselves and others, it’s revolutionary. It’s really different from the common standard assumptions in our culture about ourselves that stem from the idea of a single personality. Relationships inside me? Parts, systems, the innermost self? Tonight we are receiving and responding to your questions, the big questions and the little questions. Anything and everything about IFS and parts work grounded in a Catholic understanding of the human person, a Catholic anthropology. And I am not on this podcast alone. Oh no. I have three of my favorite people, three experts in Catholic human formation, all with formal IFS training, all faithful Catholics. So you’ll get all of our voices in response to your questions. And we have a live audience in our virtual studio, lots of people. And so without more ado, let’s get this show going.

[00:02:13] Dr. Peter: I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, also known as Dr. Peter. I am your host and guide in this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast. I’m so glad to be with you. I am a clinical psychologist, a trauma therapist, a podcaster, writer, co-founder, and president of Souls and Hearts. But most of all, I’m a beloved little son of God, a passionate Catholic who wants to help you to taste and see the height and depth and breadth, and the warmth and the light of the love of God, especially God, your father, and also Mary your mother, your spiritual parents, your primary parents. I’m here to help you embrace your identity as a beloved little child of God and Mary. And as many of you know, throughout all of 2025, we are bringing in the insights from Internal Family Systems developed by Dr. Richard Schwartz, and we’re harmonizing those insights with the truths of the Catholic faith so that you can better live out the three great loves and the two great commandments — to love God, your neighbor and yourself. And as part of this, I’m bringing you the best of the Catholic professionals in the field as my co-hosts, as my expert guests, to share with you their insights, their understandings, their experience, so that you can go way beyond just merely surviving, but move on to thriving and flourishing and fully embracing your identity as a beloved little son or daughter of God. And not just with one or two parts of you, but with all your parts, all your parts, sharing in the union, sharing in the intimacy with God. 

[00:03:42] Dr. Peter: So with me today, I’m so excited to have Bridget Adams as my co-host. And in this deep dive, she has been with us in episodes 159, 162, and 163. We did an extensive intro for Bridget in episode 159. Just going to hit some highlights here. She’s a trained coach, IFS Level 1 trained, one of the last coaches to be able to receive IFS Institute training. She is the member care coordinator for the Resilient Catholics Community. She is a facilitator for our Foundations Experiential Groups in the Formation for Formators community, and she was one of the very first members of Souls and Hearts, one of the very first members of the RCC. It is such a pleasure to have you here, helping me again, host, and to kind of just make things go smoothly tonight. So, so glad to have you with me here today, Bridget. 

[00:04:34] Bridget Adams: Thank you, Dr. Peter. 

[00:04:37] Dr. Peter: Marion Moreland is a guest expert in this deep dive. She’s been with us in episodes 157, 160, and 162. In fact, she basically took episode 162 and ran with it. And Marion is a Level 3 certified Internal Family Systems therapist. She’s the lead navigator for our Resilient Catholics Community here at Souls and Hearts, and she is deeply committed to grounding human formation in an authentic Catholic anthropology informed by IFS and parts and systems thinking. And I’ve known Marion for four years now. I’m so excited to have her on the RCC staff. We are so blessed to have you with us. Thank you for being here with us today, Marion. 

[00:05:19] Marion Moreland: Yeah, it’s great to be here, Dr. Peter. I’m looking forward to this evening. 

[00:05:24] Dr. Peter: And along with Marion as our guest expert, we have David Edwards and he has been with us on the bookends of this series that we’re starting out with, episodes 157, 164. An IFS therapist, the founder of St. Joseph Counseling. He’s the president of Catholic Therapists Arizona. And he leads the Love One Another group in the Formation for Formators community in Souls and Hearts. And he enjoys, this is so interesting, racing in triathlons with his wife, playing guitar, flying remote controlled helicopters. It is a pleasure to have you with us, David Edwards. 

[00:06:06] David Edwards: Thank you, Dr. Peter. It’s a joy. 

[00:06:09] Dr. Peter: So episodes 157 to 164 is basically a brief course in IFS. It’s a brief course in how we understand Internal Family Systems. And I thought we might just start with just a key point from each of you, something that maybe you’d like to bring a more to the forefront, that maybe didn’t get quite enough emphasis, or maybe there was a different take on it or spin on it that you would like to offer us about anything that, you know, has kind of gone before. What would you want us to know, David, Bridget, Marion, about IFS, that we could just bring a little more clarity to as we begin tonight?

[00:06:49] Marion Moreland: You want me to jump in here? 

[00:06:52] Dr. Peter: Absolutely. 

[00:06:53] Marion Moreland: Okay. Well, one of the things that I hear frequently when I’m talking to people is that, you know, I want to get rid of this, I want to stop this. I don’t want to have this, you know, whatever that part is doing, it’s like we want to excise it. And I think that sometimes in this term, unblending, that we use, we make it sound like we’re trying to get rid of or take away even the best parts of the parts, you know. Like my task master that I call out all the time, the poor thing, but I think maybe other parts are the poor thing with her around, it’s great at getting stuff done. You know, it’s only when it’s working from that more burdened extreme place that then it can really put attacks on the system. So I think we don’t realize, like even the parts, the messy ones, the addiction ones, sometimes they’re telling us, Hey, there’s a need for some self-care here. And really being able to look and see the good in the part, not just that their method is bad or anything like that. But to see these parts were all created in the image and likeness, right, because we are. And now, how are they trying to live that out and how can we help them? So that’s just something that’s like always on my heart. These parts, these poor parts that we want to banish. 

[00:08:29] Dr. Peter: Well, beautiful. Thank you for that, Marion. Yeah, just a reminder that all parts are good. All parts have good intentions and we are called to love our parts and to enter into relationship with them. So that whole being with, just bringing that theme out, just love it. So thank you for that. David, you got something for us? 

[00:08:50] David Edwards: Yeah, actually Marion, the thing that you said, it was one of the things I was thinking about too, about touching on and it’s like the goal of IFS is not just to unblend, so we can just be like self-energy all the time, just like pure self energies, but to operate in harmony with our parts, bringing the goodness that they could bring. I thought it was great because that was like right at the top of my mind too.

[00:09:18] Marion Moreland: Glad I went first. 

[00:09:19] David Edwards: Yeah. Yeah. Isn’t that great? And another thing I was thinking about that I think fits pretty well with that is that, and that this actually just came up today and another gentleman I was with mentioned it or something like it, but is that parts need to be treated as real sub-personalities within us. They need to be treated with love. To be approached as though, I mean, I know many of us, we have these kind of questions, even if we doing IFS for a while, like, are parts really real? Are they just neural networks and things like that? And I don’t know. But in any case, I heard Dr. Peter say it once is that parts don’t appreciate being referred to as neural networks. And I like to, with my clients kind of pull out this analogy of the external system in a family. And it’s like if you have a child who’s having some trouble with behaviors or they’re burdened in some way and how you would want to approach that child, you sit down and you talk with them and you don’t call them “it”. You don’t treat them like a machine, but you just engage in a dialogue with them and be with them, maybe hold them. And so often it’s easy to look at our parts from this kind of like analytical parts, kind of thinking about them and things, or like, we’re just trying to kind of get them in order. But we get in this where we don’t really consider them as like really persons in a way, right, who need to be loved and cared for and to be with them in a really real way. So I found when I could do that with my parts, it opens up so much more when I realize I’m having this distance like that and I can kind of hold that concept of approaching them in this more real way. It just, something opens up a lot more. 

[00:11:16] Marion Moreland: I’m glad you brought that up because I think it’s about the relationship, right? The idea isn’t to run through and create a list of parts and check off, Ooh, I’ve met this one and I fixed their problems. And now we go on. Really nice manager driven, right? 

[00:11:32] David Edwards: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:32] Marion Moreland: But to really enter into relationship with a part means time. It means trust, it means rapport. It means making mistakes and coming back and fixing them. You know, all of those sorts of things and we don’t necessarily think about that with our parts, but they are these little people in us and they deserve that dignity.

[00:11:58] David Edwards: Mm-hmm. And this relationship, you kind of nailed it, I think, with that word because this is part of why the model resonates so deeply with me as a Catholic because it’s like the very reason why God created us is for relationship. It’s like the most fundamental thing of what it is to be human. And so relationship within is kind of the foundation of that. 

[00:12:25] Dr. Peter: It’s beautiful. And just for those that may have like parts that are really into theological distinctions or metaphysical distinctions, really, we’re not saying that these parts are actually separate persons. You’re only one person. But there are these distinctions within us and these parts, these personalities, some people talk about them as sort of like these sides of us or these aspects of us. They’re these constellations of all kinds of things. They’re not just mood states. They actually last over time and so forth. So they definitely feel like these sort of separate entities, they’re distinct within us and we can relate with them. So it’s a beautiful thing, a beautiful thing. Bridget, you got something for us that you would like to emphasize? Okay. 

[00:13:06] Bridget Adams: I think the thing I would like to reemphasize or bring into the light is that slow is fast in IFS and that can mean a lot of different things for different people. It can even just mean slowing down our speech or slowing down our thoughts. It doesn’t just mean like on the big level, like taking it slow with the work, but just slowing down is a huge part of what makes IFS work. So it’s both micro and macro slowing down. And there’s a quite a few of us in the RCC who have been going at this for three, four years who are still in what might be, if it had to be in a category, well, go ahead, call me a beginner. It’s okay. I can take it. You know, like still working with protectors who are really strong or still working with trying to figure out what’s all going on. And that’s not problematic in IFS. In fact, it builds trust interiorly to not drive with an agenda or a timeline or a to-do list or some idea that we have to like keep up.

[00:14:12] Bridget Adams: And so those are signs that a manager or another part is really active, which we welcome all parts, but we want to be able to recognize when is this kind of a manager driven IFS work. And also I’d like to also say IFS isn’t right for all people at all times in their life. So slow is fast could also mean putting the brakes on for a little while and doing some work around something else, or finding the right time in life to be able to do this inner work. So just a lot of compassion. I’d like to give a shout out to all of the people here today who are off camera. I have parts who would prefer to be off camera as well, if there’s no pressure to be on camera. But I just want to greet them because they’re here. So I just want to say hello to everyone who’s here. Thank you, Dr. Peter. What about you? Anything you’d like to?

[00:15:01] Dr. Peter: Just the idea that it’s all about, and I mentioned this in the intro, but I keep coming back to it. It’s all about being able to be loved in the fullness of our being and to love with the fullness of our being. Really ultimately about being able to enter into union with God and the Three Persons of the Trinity, and to be able to connect more deeply, more intimately with others because we have that interior integration, that allows for that union with others. So this is really kind of what the big picture is of it. And I liked what you were saying about sort of slowing down, Bridget, and that’s a nice segue because David, you’ve graciously agreed to do what we call a drop in exercise, which is just to help us be able to connect with our parts and to kind of be really present in the moment and to help us prepare for the conversation, the exchange that’s coming up for us. Just going to invite you to really be present with your parts and I’m going to give this over to you, David. Help us get oriented here and going to be able to engage a little bit more deeply.

[00:16:11] David Edwards: Okay. Okay, thanks. Yeah, so this’ll be kind of brief, you know, a few minutes, three, four minutes or so, and I’m just going to invite everybody to focus inside a little bit. And as we do this, I’m just going to ask our parts. You can ask your parts to come and be with you, to come and connect with you. I want to bring parts together and just take a moment to notice whatever you notice internally. Thoughts. Images. Notice parts in your body. We don’t need to do anything with it right now. Just notice, acknowledge. And if you can, welcome whatever parts are nearby, whatever they’re bringing, asking them to be near. But separate, not distant, not taking over, just nearby. A little more space to be with yourself and with whatever parts are with you, you can just ask, check in with them about what questions they might have about Internal Family Systems or parts work, Catholic parts work. Maybe parts already had some questions in mind that you brought. Maybe there’s a new question. What are they wondering about? What do they want to know? If it helps to write any notes, you can do that. I want to check if there are any parts with any concerns about you asking a question or asking that particular question, perhaps about coming on camera or about the nature of the question, or it seems like a silly question. I want to really respect many parts that have concerns like that. A lot of freedom here. Invitation to concerned parts to see would they allow you enough space so that you could speak for your part that has the question. Perhaps some with some courage, but it’s not forced. And so if any part just says no, then we want to really respect that. And it might help to tell them that you can also submit questions anonymously through the chat in case that helps a bit. Just a lot of gratitude to whatever parts have been with you here. And as we wrap up this drop in, just want to ask your parts to stay with you and listen in if they want to listen in, allowing you to speak for them, maybe taking in whatever they’d like to take in from this time together. And with that, we’ll bring that exercise to a close.

[00:22:15] Dr. Peter: Thank you, David. And so Bridget Adams is going to be handling questions. If you have a question you would like to ask anonymously, just send it to Bridget, and if there’s a question you would like to just type up, that you would like us all to see and would like to be connected to you, your name, maybe you can just put that out to everybody. You can chat it to everybody. 

[00:22:46] Bridget Adams: I have a question from the chat. When working with a legacy burden, can parts feel like they’re being gotten rid of?

[00:22:57] David Edwards: Hmm. I might let Peter and Marion potentially speak more to the question of legacy burden, but what occurs to me is what probably could be the case for any type of burden or any type of experience, engaging and encountering with a part, with protectors too, because parts can really identify with their burdens and parts can identify other parts with their burdens and tell them that you are your burden. And they might just not know that my burden’s not me, but it’s something connected with me or attached to me and it can be released and I can be here and be freed up. And so in any of those cases, it’s really valuable to be aware of that potential and to really be bringing curiosity to hear if that concern is there. And just offering a lot of gentle assurance to parts that they’re not their burdens, whether it be a more personal burden or a legacy burden. Again, a lot of gentleness, if and when they are ready to release a burden in some way, that they can be very confident that it’s not the part who’s going away and that actually they’ll be more freed up to be more of who they really are.

[00:24:20] Marion Moreland: Yeah, I think sometimes for parts we need that. They need that space to understand who they can be without that burden. And legacy, it almost feels like it kind of magnifies that. But sometimes it’s harder to imagine who I would be if I didn’t have the burden of this feeling of anxiety. Like, what would that be like for some people? So it can really feel like it. My suspicion, though, is if it does feel like it, you might be going too fast and you haven’t given the part sufficient time to express its concerns, to understand what its hopes are. Also, in the legacy burden process, we often are prepared to invite in blessing to replace burden that was released, and so sometimes that can be really helpful for the parts to hear and to know that we’re not getting rid of you. We’re just kind of letting go of the pieces of you that have been holding you back and inviting in the blessings that are really prepared for you. 

[00:25:42] Dr. Peter: I like to say that every part is indispensable. You would not be you without every single one of your parts. Every part is absolutely necessary. But burdens on the other hand, they’re optional. You know, I mean, we want to make sure that we don’t try to unburden parts prematurely, before they’re ready to let go of those burdens. But yeah, the distinction between parts and burdens is a really important one as both of you are making clear, whether those are personal burdens, whether they’re legacy burdens. And parts also can feel like they’re trying to be gotten rid of, when in fact other parts are trying to get rid of them, you know? And so, that is not an uncommon experience. And when people are first beginning to get in touch with their systems to find that there are some really strong polarizations, and an attempt to not only silence and suppress parts, but a wish, an agenda of some protector parts to be able to get rid of other parts entirely. It’s just never going to happen though. I have in the work mentioned that a lot to parts, to say, you know, you actually cannot just banish permanently a part. It doesn’t work like that.

[00:26:56] David Edwards: Yeah, I was thinking that could be really reassuring to a part just as an initial thing. Like by the way, like actually even if we wanted to and all of my parts and me as the self tried to get rid of you, we couldn’t.

[00:27:11] Bridget Adams: Appreciate all of those responses. I would just like to add that legacy burdens might be one thing, but we’re all holding legacy gifts, like Marion said, legacy blessings. So just let your parts take that in. It’s not just legacy burden, it’s also a lot of good coming from our legacy and our heritage. So, I just want to offer that hope. And if this is a good time, we’ve got a live question. Avis, I saw your hand go up first. What would you like to bring in? 

[00:27:42] Avis: Thank you. I’m looking at the eight Cs, calm, curious, creative, compassionate, connected, confident, courageous and clarity. And I kind of struggle with those in relationship to self, especially like Marion, I have a very strong, she calls it a task master. I have a very strong controller panelist. So I’m looking specifically at confidence and clarity. And in my mind it’s like my controlling analyst is very clear on what needs to happen, and she’s very confident and she’s very clear. So how do you determine confidence and clarity in self or is my controller analyst supportive of, well, yeah. Let me ask the question just a little bit differently. So all of these Cs, how do parts relate to enabling self to be in those eight Cs? Does that make sense?

[00:29:00] Dr. Peter: Yeah, I think so. 

[00:29:02] Marion Moreland: Yeah. It sounds like you’re asking, how do you distinguish the difference between the confidence that a part might have — say, I am confident, I have got this, and the rest of you can just step aside, right? And I actually think it’s when we start to look at the attitudes of all the rest of them, and are there some of those eight Cs that begin to not only be not present, but kind of banished? So, yeah, confidence is great, but if in that sense of confidence, I’ve lost all self-compassion, then I know it’s a part. It’s not coming from self. And so sometimes we look a little differently. Also these eight Cs are good guides, but it’s more about that disposition. Some people have said instead of calm, it’s helpful to replace that word with safe because some people never really feel calm, you know? And so having proximity, safety in their proximity is a better way of looking at it. But motivation and agenda are often the big thing. Self doesn’t take over and have an agenda to run the parts. And that’s usually where I find, yeah, I got a confident part coming in and it’s got its agenda that it is sure it’s going to get done. And that’s probably not wholly self. So I don’t know that others have to say. 

[00:30:45] David Edwards: Yeah, I agree with all that. There’s a little bit of a side point that Marion kind of touched on. I want to add that the eight Cs are not like the holy grail, like the only qualities of self, I don’t think. Just eight words that Dick Schwartz came up with when he formed the model. But the self is capable of other qualities. I kind of think of them as categories of qualities, maybe the eight Cs, and there are many other qualities that the self can bring. And then Marion was kind of saying this, but like parts are also capable of being connected with those qualities in a good way. So like we don’t want a confident part to stop being confident. Like a part can be confident and the self can be confident, both. We want that when the part’s in right relationship with the self.

[00:31:34] David Edwards: But yeah, that question about agenda, and a question to ask maybe would be, what would happen if you weren’t so confident? And for a part with an agenda, an agenda to protect, it is very potentially, if the part feels safe enough to share, going to bring up an exile, some way that the part’s protecting, with that kind of confidence. Whereas the flavor of confidence maybe that self would be bringing, is not so much about to protect, but to connect and be with and love. I think it’s a kind of confidence that other parts would be comfortable with and be good with, right. And so if other parts are really reacting to it, that might also be a hint. 

[00:32:26] Avis: So quick comment, what if my parts hate the word agenda, just saying. I dunno which one it is, but that word agenda gets my goat.

[00:32:39] Dr. Peter: Well, there could be an objection to the word or there could be an objection to the concept. Because some parts don’t like having their agendas identified, right. I’d be curious about that. A lot of parts don’t want to be confronted with the reality that they are trying to drive the bus, that they are trying to take over the system, especially if they have some familiarity with Internal Family Systems, if they’ve been sort of included in that. And so yeah, I think we want to be sensitive to that, mindful of that. But we also sometimes need to be firm, you know, that this is indeed an agenda and you can push the agenda, but it’s going to have some consequences. And we’ve got some alternatives, if you’re interested.

[00:33:29] Avis: Thank you. 

[00:33:29] Bridget Adams: I just want to bring one of the Souls and Hearts resources. That’s the eight Cs of natural recollection. And it’s a beautiful brief little handout that shows synonyms, antonyms, and counterfeits for the eight Cs. It can be very insightful for doing parts work because, like calmness, I’ll just give a couple of examples. Calmness, tranquility, peacefulness, serenity, quietness, those are synonyms. And then counterfeits are numbness, apathy, freezing, shutting down. And for confidence a synonym is assurance, poise, grace, childlike trust, and counterfeits are overconfidence driven by a shame-fueled sense of inadequacy or brazenness. And so just doing a little bit of a deeper dive into, is this actually courage or is it being out of touch with my own fear, like almost a reckless or bravado kind of experience. So it’s a nuanced understanding, I think, of the eight Cs and, yeah, so I’m happy to share that.

[00:34:46] Avis: Yeah. That would be great. That would be great, Bridget. I would love to see that. That sounds like it would actually be very helpful. 

[00:34:54] Dr. Peter: We’ll put it in the description, in the YouTube description for this episode, so you can just download it. We’ve got a bunch of resources all in one, including other ways to kind of assess the degree to which you have natural recollection or that you’re in self.

[00:35:08] Avis: Thanks. 

[00:35:09] Bridget Adams: We’re going to take the next live question from Casey. And then before we get to Deb, there was a chat question that came in after Casey raised her hand.

[00:35:18] Casey: Thank you all so much. My question emerged from the episode that Marion did with, I forget the name of your colleague who was on with you, but you had this really interesting discussion about illness and parts. And it sounded at one point, like someone was suggesting that something like cancer could itself be a part, which doesn’t sound right to me if we’re operating under the assumption that parts aren’t created or destroyed, like if we’re born with parts. But it does make sense to me that an illness could burden, could be a significant burden on a part or multiple parts. And I think my own experience of having chronic illnesses of various kinds is probably like a significant burden on some exiles. So I’m just wondering if you, and then I’d be curious to hear from everyone, can talk about kind of physical long-term, especially physical sickness, and how you would think about that in terms of being itself a part or a burden or how it might otherwise fit into the system.

[00:36:23] Marion Moreland: Yeah, that’s a great question. It’s one that I’ve wrestled with since I heard that, you know, it was from Lissa Rankin. And what I realized is it’s not saying that cancer is the part, it’s talking about cancer or chronic illness as a mechanism of the part. So it’s the way the part tries to get your attention or to fix a problem. So in this particular case that was described, it was a doctor working resident hours, like crazy, and she developed cancer. And the upshot of it was that the cancer, the part carrying the cancer said that she needed to slow down. Well, okay, we’re not going to discuss the fact that the slowdown method could kill you, but yes, it did get her to slow down, right? And that’s such an extreme one that I have parts that kind of sit back and go, okay, I can see that. I’m not going to discount somebody else’s experience, but I do think with like long-term illnesses or like autoimmune disorders, there are things that, some of them are legacy stuff that we carry because this is the way our system is kind of genetically wired. But a part has to deal with it. And it’s kind of like that kid that’s got the sore throat and the math test, that the sore throat suddenly gets a little worse on the day of the math test so they don’t have to go to school. I think parts of us can maybe do that with some of these longer term illnesses. So yeah, I’d love to hear what others have to say. This is one I love going down, but it feels like stepping out there. But if a part can make my heart race because I’m anxious, why can’t it do these other things? 

[00:38:33] David Edwards: It seems good to kind of unequivocally say that the cancer, the illness, is not the part, just like we say parts are not their burdens. It’s not the part itself. It can be connected with the part in some way, so it can be burdening a part. And yeah, I also kind of have wrestled with the idea that like could really a part cause cancer or bring cancer or an illness like this, for some reason having to do with our inner kind of psychological world, attachment needs, integrity needs. But I definitely believe, like Marion was saying with the sore throat thing, that parts will sometimes exacerbate or bring an intense focus to something, to get attention. Another example that comes to mind is like, I can be tired, right? I can be tired and still do things. I can be tired and get a second wind and I can just, you know, work through an intense amount of tiredness, but I can also be tired and just be so focused on the fact that I’m tired. And usually that’s got to do with something I don’t want to do or, you know, there’s a part there that’s a tired part. My body’s tired. But the part is kind of this, no, we’re tired. We’re tired, we’re done. 

[00:39:55] Marion Moreland: Yeah, and I’ve had, we have psychosomatic pains that show up. I’ve had that experience. I think I shared about it on the episode where I had leg pain that put me in a wheelchair, right? No injury, nothing there. And then suddenly this silly little technique and it’s unlocked and it’s gone. There’s a lot about injury and illness that I think we’re still scratching the surface of, but as someone who struggles with chronic illness, I certainly have a lot of curiosity around it.

[00:40:32] Casey: Yeah, I’m certainly open to the idea that, yeah, our brains and bodies are connected. Obviously that’s the case. I guess part of where this starts to make me nervous is that it really introduces the possibility of like spiritual bypassing or even psychological bypassing, like, oh, there are things that we could just kind of heal ourselves, psychologically or spiritually and not attend to kind of spontaneous bodily needs. So, I don’t know, I guess that’s the part or parts of me that get nervous when the conversation goes in this direction. 

[00:41:10] Marion Moreland: Yeah. We’re not advocating that you throw out all your medication and just do parts work. That medical disclaimer out there, that’s not at all what we’re saying. But yeah, I understand, there is a line there.

[00:41:26] David Edwards: And it’s a real mystery to me still where the line is. You know, just how much change we can bring to our bodies, healing and change to our bodies, through working with our parts. I don’t know. I don’t know that anyone does. People say they do. I don’t know. 

[00:41:47] Bridget Adams: I recently caught a glimpse of a study, very recent scientific study about the brain that showed that an experience of awe, like you get goosebumps or you’re taken by something incredibly beautiful can cause and create healing pathways in the brain. And I just believe as a Catholic, leave the IFS stuff, like God created us with this healing ability built in. And so whether it’s IFS or something else and a doctor, when it requires calling on a doctor or an emergency room or a surgery, like we are given what it takes to find healing. And sometimes it takes longer than other times. Sometimes the mystery is much deeper. And Dr. Peter, if you’d like to tap in, great. If not, I’ll go on to the next question. 

[00:42:35] Dr. Peter: No, I think you guys covered it. I don’t have much to add. 

[00:42:37] Bridget Adams: Thank you. Well, there’s a question in the chat about the difference between parts work and mental prayer. So for context, I’ve recently come to the realization that my managers have been running my spiritual life and now that just feels wrong. At the same time, it also feels wrong to include other parts. Culturally, I think manager parts are more appreciated, encouraged in the spiritual space. So it feels wrong to pray with exile parts. And so I’m in a very confusing and difficult and sometimes discouraging space.

[00:43:24] Dr. Peter: Well, I can open with this one. I think the vast majority of Catholics’ spiritual lives are run by their spiritual managers. Just start with that. You know, I think the vast majority of devout Catholics, their spiritual lives are pretty much run and directed by sometimes one, sometimes a team of spiritual managers. And so that’s really common. In fact, in our fallen human condition, I would say that’s the norm. And it’s not all bad, by the way. That’s not meant to be a criticism. The reason that the spiritual managers take over is because of fear, you know, and they are prone to not want to include parts of us that do not seem to them to be acceptable, lovable, do not want certain parts to be in the shop window, part of the image that we want to present to God or to others. And so it can be a real adjustment to believe that God actually wants to connect with these parts too. That he wants us to come to him wholeheartedly and that means with all of our parts. And so, a lot of times other people have accepted our manager parts, but not other parts of us. That can be generalized to assuming God accepts only certain parts of us, but not others because that’s been our experience of others in authority.

[00:45:07] Dr. Peter: But if we look at the example of Jesus, he was always reaching out to the outcasts, to the ones that were rejected, the lepers, the blind, the lame, the tax collectors, the sinners. He was reaching out to the lost sheep. And so I think that also applies within our internal systems, and that when he loves us, he loves us in our entirety. And that includes every part of us. So a lot of times the exploration of this can just be with the managers about what feels wrong about it, you know, where are the concerns stemming from? What are the issues there? There’s a lot of kindness and understanding, and then a lot of times gradually parts can be allowed to have a little bit more of a place at the table in prayer. But I get that it can be a confusing and difficult space when you’re making that transition because manager parts can feel like it’s absolutely essential for a good relationship with God to not include these parts. And now, maybe we’re wrong about that. If the innermost self can actually be more present in the spiritual life and in the life of prayer, leading and guiding the system, that can help a lot too. 

[00:46:29] Marion Moreland: Can I clarify something you were saying there, Dr. Peter, you said, it can be a confusing and difficult place for the parts. 

[00:46:38] Dr. Peter: Oh yeah, yeah.

[00:46:39] Marion Moreland: A manager part. As I hear this question, what I hear is a part that’s trying to make sense of this inner reality, and it might not even be the part that actually coordinates the mental prayer or anything like that. There’s a part that’s not able to understand something. And that’s where I will start sometimes looking about, what’s that part’s relationship with God and how is it seeing this dynamic? Because yeah, there’s some pieces there that just don’t feel like the part has maybe the fullness of maturity of the rest of a system. Although I have to wonder, I don’t know if I’d say that, well, spiritual lives may be sort of led by managers, like the routine stuff. I’ll tell you when I get activated, my firefighters are kicking in to pray because they don’t know what else to do. So that’s their way of dealing with it, right. But you know, I think this sounds like a young part that’s trying to sort out something that feels unsettling to it, and that’s where I want to get curious, who’s asking the question?

[00:48:01] Dr. Peter: Right. 

[00:48:03] David Edwards: That’s great. Yeah, I think you guys are right on it. What might really yield something helpful, especially with these answers already, just kind of tuning into, when I’m saying it feels wrong to pray with an exile, that there’s a part there that’s taken on the belief, sounds like cultural kind of influence is there, taken on the belief that it’s wrong to pray with an exile like that. And so it might be kind of a new thing already just to tune into the fact that that could be a part. But then one of the beautiful things about this work is that we can ask parts to unblend. And I’m not saying just like, oh, okay, go unblend. But if you just start to focus gently on that part and just see how you notice it and ask the part to separate a little bit and give you a little space, you might real quickly just start to find a little bit more clarity about all of that, about who that part is and what they’re about and about the answers to the questions that you’re asking. It might just seem a little more clear just as the part unblends a little bit. And then you can support that part in some way to access that clarity. 

[00:49:16] Bridget Adams: As Dr. Peter mentioned in the very beginning, one of the biggest goals is to be integrated and to be able to love fully with all of our parts. And there have been people who’ve started doing parts work in the Resilient Catholics Community, who feel like their prayer life starts to suffer in a sense, but with deeper work, they realized that they weren’t allowing their whole system to come into prayer. It was only like, Dr. Peter will say, the shop window parts or the good-enough-to-be-included-in-the-chapel parts. And so once there’s a realization of other parts, it can cause a bit of a difference in the prayer life. And that can be unsettling for parts that were perfectly content with how things were going before, thank you very much. Right. So it can be a sign of integration with growing pains, I guess is what I want to maybe just throw out, to wrap that up. Anything else to close this question? We good? Good. Deb, you’ve had your hand up. Thank you for being so patient. 

[00:50:16] Deb: My question is, what are some practical steps we can take when we are blended? For instance, for an example, my self sacrificer has been very active all my life. I worked in the medical field, then I worked as a psychotherapist, practicing with clients. And there is good in that part of me, I believe that. And I don’t want to lose the good, but practically speaking, my self sacrificer can get so active that I end up feeling somatic symptoms, physically ill, because I’m feeling like I should have done this or should have done that, and maybe it’s not even fully my responsibility. So I guess I’m just asking for practical steps when we’re struggling with one of our protectors or an exile who’s so blended that, even though we appreciate that part of ourselves, that we’re suffering in the present and it’s causing problems in the present.

[00:51:27] David Edwards: Well, perhaps we can get more practical, because this may seem less practical. But, sounds like you’re already doing, you know, is at first, just simply becoming aware of the fact that you are blended or might be blended with a part, simply becoming aware of it and acknowledging it to yourself, is actually like quite a big thing and step. And then like I think I just said a moment ago, was we can’t force parts to unblend. If we do, we probably just have other parts that are pushing them out. But if we ask parts to unblend, they can. And so it kind of seems silly and it doesn’t occur to me a lot, but when it does occur to me, it’s really helpful that I can, instead of like, I get an angry part, impatient with the kids, instead of trying to force myself to not be angry and just like grrr, get it under control. I can just say, oh, an angry part blended. Hey, could you soften a little bit? And not like trying to make it happen, but just ask it in a question. Could you soften a little bit? And it’s been amazing to me sometimes, how it actually does. The part does. And there needs to be a certain level of trust in relationship with the part and that might be built over time. And so that’s why I say maybe it’s less, less practical because it might not be accessible to do that right now. So maybe Marion and Peter have other ideas too. 

[00:52:54] Marion Moreland: Yeah. You know, what stands out for me is, do we understand why the self sacrificer is doing self-sacrificing? Like, how does that part think it’s helping you? Yes, we can have all our thinking parts and our other spiritual parts come in and give a lot of explanation on why we want a self-sacrificer. But why is the part doing it? Because sometimes parts, like protector parts, will actually carry kind of their own burdens, if you will. And it might be doing that because of a burden that it’s carried. Like my good old task master, I call her out, but the reason she was doing what she was doing is she was carrying a burden that if I wasn’t busy, I didn’t matter. And so she would push me to these extremes and still every once in a while will, because that’s how she saw that I had value. It’s listening for the core belief that’s driving the part into the extreme. That’s where we get to this really deep relationship to be able to understand, yeah, this is where I’m really vulnerable. I’m tender because if I let go of that, who am I? If I’m not sacrificing, coming back to the beginning, who am I? Do I matter? 

[00:54:27] David Edwards: I just want to add to that, I think what you said, Marion, so valuable and just kind of to that end too. One thing to really think about is, seeking our parts and parts like that out when they’re not blended. We can tend to only give attention to parts, to certain parts when they’re really blended and then we’re trying to get them to, you know, calm down or unblend. And they would be kind of like, you know, I have a kid who maybe feels a bit ignored and they have some behaviors maybe. I give them a lot of attention when they’re having difficult behavior. And then otherwise, you know, I don’t give them a lot of attention and they’re alone and can feel like, well, you only care about me when I’m causing trouble. And what we would want to do as a parent with a kid like that, is like, we want to seek that kid out, affirm the kid, you know, when they do something great, affirm the kid for their own sake, of course, right? Because they’re a child and they’re a child of God. But to spend time with them when they’re not upset and acting out in some way, and ask them, you know, a lot of safety, a lot of gentleness and a lot of space, asking them questions about, you know, how they feel about when they get in trouble like that? Or the types of questions now that Marion, was bringing to really understand what’s going on. But we can’t do it so much when they’re blended, you know? It’s not really the time for those types of questions. Seeking them out when they’re not blended.

[00:56:00] Deb: Okay. Well, that all makes sense to me and I appreciate your answers. Thank you. 

[00:56:07] Dr. Peter: Well, what I just wanted to share this little image of the stool of stability and security. You know, and I think about when parts blend, they’re usually worried about one of three things, one of three categories, either the attachment needs or the integrity needs, or there’s some identity issues. And so if we can help parts with those needs and with those issues and they can feel a sense of having those needs met, they will be far more inclined to unblend. 

[00:56:43] Bridget Adams: Dr. Peter, there’s a question that came in the chat asking if you have anything to add to what Jay Earley wrote about anger, especially regarding displaced anger. And how there can be so much happening between exiles and protectors. Just basically asking for any comments you’d like to add. 

[00:57:04] Dr. Peter: So anger is a really interesting dynamic within a system because it’s often both the way that a firefighter might be responding and it’s often exiled as well. So you can have, remember that these three categories, managers, firefighters, and exiles, they’re ways that we describe roles of parts and ideally, what we would like is that, in our system, we have no managers, no firefighters and no exiles, but that we have former managers, former firefighters, former exiles, right? Because if a part is well integrated, I mean, maybe it could maintain something of a manager role, like in conjunction with the innermost self, if the system is relatively unblended. But oftentimes they’re finding different roles, you know, like a really creative part or a part that’s just, you know, caught up with awe and wonder or playful part, right? It doesn’t fit into any of those roles very well, of those three. 

[00:58:07] Dr. Peter: So, but anger is often a way that parts who are engaged in firefighting are going to respond, but it often freaks out the managers. And so those parts that carry anger, that harbor anger, can often be exiled. I don’t know that displacement, I mean, displacement is technically a psychoanalytic term, and it means that anger is redirected or displaced. So if I’m really angry, if I’m a little child and I’m really angry at mom, for example, but it’s too threatening to be angry at mom, so the anger gets transformed into I’m really angry at my dog, you know, or something like that. That’s displacement. And what you can see with that is that the anger is still held by the exile, by the part that is angry and is angry at mom. That part usually doesn’t lose track of that, but that part can be really suppressed or repressed and the anger that does leak out in some ways can be redirected or displaced by the managers.

[00:59:18] Dr. Peter: That’s how I think that dynamic can actually work. So it’s frequent that people will have anger directed at certain people. Or sometimes they’ll try to direct it at impersonal objects or situations. Like, I’m not angry at you, I’m just angry at the situation. Right. Well, sometimes that’s a way that managers are attempting to disconnect from, or redirect away from the experiences of some of their exiles. So that’s what I would say about anger. Kind of expanding a little bit on what Jay Earley has to say in his book. Again, to find out about these things we develop relationships of trust and the parts will tell us. I spent a lot of time as a psychoanalytic clinician, as a psychodynamic clinician interpreting anger. It’s far easier and faster to develop good relationships with parts, even though that can take some time and then just have them tell you their stories. And that way you’re you’re not throwing as many darts in the dark with interpretive statements. So I hope that helps. 

[01:00:24] Bridget Adams: Thank you, Dr. Peter. There’s another question that came in through the chat. My adult daughter, my only child, hasn’t spoken to me for seven years, stating that my faith is too strong and I am toxic. I have talked to my spiritual director and my therapist. I grieve the loss of our relationship. Most of the time I focus on the present moment with God, but there are times when there are tears. I feel like my parts are giving me time to grieve and I honor that. Is this a good way to accept the parts?

[01:01:06] Marion Moreland: I think when we have emotion, when a part has a feeling, we’re going to get a much better reaction if we allow it to have the feeling, you know, rather than trying to lock it down. I mean, as a mom with adult children that don’t always have perfect relationships, my heart goes out to those parts and it can be so painful. But being with those parts, being aware, are there parts that maybe have different perspectives on how you should be handling it? Do they need to be tended to? Really listening. Your system is the expert on you, and you’re going to know what to do for you.

[01:02:05] David Edwards: Yeah, I was going to give the simple answer. Yes. Yeah. It is a good way to care for your parts or grieve. Parts need space to exist. I was thinking in terms of attachment, integrity, attachment needs and integrity needs is that, you know, parts carrying grief need space to exist. They need safety to cry, to be heard and understood. Be comforted, not comforted, like stop crying, but you know, comforted, it’s okay to cry and I’m here for you. Be supported, belong, sense of belonging in your system. So think about parts with grief and approaching them with those things in mind. Yeah, absolutely. 

[01:03:02] Dr. Peter: Yeah, I don’t have much to add to that except to, I just appreciate that some parts may really be carrying the burden of a lot of grief or of a sense of loss or maybe anger, right. Or other emotions or other experiences. And that can be really intense. And so we just appreciate that parts may be struggling with some burdens like that. And it helps to ask those parts not to overwhelm us with the intensity of their experience. I’m fond of saying we don’t need to drown in the barrel, to know what it tastes like. We can have a sip, you know, of what that experience is. It can be a little bit of blending as a really quick way for a part to share the intensity of the experience. But I want to make sure that parts are working in a way that is regulated, that doesn’t overwhelm, and parts can choose to do that. A lot of times managers don’t know, protectors don’t know, that parts can do that. But that’s a really critical way to help preserve a sense of safety, that first primary condition of attachment security, across the system.

[01:04:15] Bridget Adams: I’d just like to add to compassion. This is unfortunately not an uncommon experience and there are quite a few members actually in the Resilient Catholics Community who, part of the reason they’re coming into human formation is to try to make sense of why some of their most intimate relationships have fallen apart, for lack of a better word, and there’s so much hope in learning to be self-led and having our parts on board. But under some self-leadership, I have several examples of people whose relationships, including grown children who had written them off completely, who divorce them, entering back into relationship when they sense the self-leadership. Dr. Peter will often say self draws out self. I don’t know if that’s an IFS term or, but yeah, so you’re just repeating it. But like the grown kid is like, wait, mom or dad is a little different. There’s not an agenda now. They’re not like telling me to put the pot away or stop doing this or start doing that. They’re just being with me. And that can lead to healing where it seemed impossible. So there’s a lot of hope for self-led relating and learning to love from a more integrated place.

[01:05:36] Marion Moreland: I’m smiling because I’m remembering a conversation where one of my daughters said to me, who are you and what did you do with my mother that I grew up with? So, you know, we’re all in this growth process, right. But it’s nice when they can see it. 

[01:05:54] Bridget Adams: Yeah. And we have another comment in the chat. It says, not a question, but a thought. Since starting IFS therapy, it is a healing and helpful for the sanctification journey. For example, a jealousy part, which is a sin in Catholic language, is trying to protect the insecure unlovable exile. When that exile is healed, that jealousy manager is transformed in their role. Prior to Internal Family Systems, I had no way to combat the jealousy part and only ask Jesus to forgive me and change me not to be jealous.

[01:06:44] Dr. Peter: Well, here’s a great example of how when we do our human formation arithmetic, our spiritual algebra gets a lot better. You know, we begin to relate within ourselves. We understand ourselves, you know, as this multiplicity that we have these parts and we have this innermost self, and that we begin to appreciate that parts have good intentions, and that even when some of the impulses or desires are maladaptive, sinful, there’s still a good intention behind them. And if we can meet that need, if we can find other ways to have the good that that part seeks, but in a healthy way. Parts are generally really willing to explore those new options with us. So, yeah, it’s not surprising. I hear things like this, you know, very frequently. And one of the reasons that St. John the Baptist is one of our patrons, is because he prepared the way for the Lord, you know, and in doing this human formation work, and staying in this natural realm, we know that it’s going to have a huge impact on the spiritual life because grace perfects nature and it’s got to have that nature to work with. And so we shore up that natural foundation for the spiritual life, it’s going to have a really positive impact even though we’re not specifically, you know, focused on spiritual formation in the RCC, for example, or in Souls and Hearts more generally.

[01:08:23] Marion Moreland: Yeah. And just one quick thought, just remembering that the part that is carrying the jealousy is not simply jealousy. Unlike the Inside Out movies where anger is anger and joy is joy, that’s not it. That jealous part has more to it. And I think the deeper we go, the more we can understand how it took on that role and really who it wants to be in its fullness. 

[01:09:00] David Edwards: Marion, that is one of my favorite things to say to my clients when I’m working with them, you know, focusing on say, jealousy or anger. A part that’s carrying that is, just the affirmation that there’s so much more. Like I know that there’s more to this part than just angry. 

[01:09:22] Marion Moreland: Yeah. It’s such a big thing. 

[01:09:25] David Edwards: I was also just connecting that comment to, I kind of love this connection to, I think it does approach in some way, at least in a human dimension, the freedom from the law, that St. Paul talks about that as we get to the root of what’s causing a vice or sin, that we can start to step outside of the battle of our members being at war with each other, being slaves to the law, and more into the freedom of the children of God. 

[01:10:03] Bridget Adams: Thank you again to everyone for submitting questions in the chat and raising your hand and coming in and speaking the questions.

[01:10:13] Dr. Peter: Do we have like, some, some parting thought, one or two lines from each of you, David, Marion, and Bridget, that you’d like to leave our audience with for tonight? Maybe something that came up from the questions.

[01:10:34] Marion Moreland: I just want to come back to the relationship. You know, it’s in that relationship that we can learn to love ourselves and we can help those parts of us that feel unlovable or damaged or broken. And that, that’s really where it starts. Because if I can’t love myself, I can turn it outwards, but it’s a fake thing. It’s not real. It’s not all that it’s created to be. And so it’s not about naval gazing, I’ve heard that term. But it’s about really like almost on some deep level, like this really deep examination of conscience where instead of just listening to whatever comes up as we’re going through some kind of examination, but we’re listening to the parts that are taking us into that space and helping to understand where they’re coming from and it’ll get us to a much more true relationship. 

[01:11:38] David Edwards: My word will kind of connect with that, I think, if I can formulate it. That our flaws, our shortcomings, our sin, our like awareness of our inadequacies. This is a gift also because we know God works all things for good and that those shortcomings themselves are the occasions to love and be loved unconditionally, because we’re not earning it. And that same unconditional love that God gives, we also, if there’s grace in us and the gift of the self, our innermost selves can extend that unconditional love to our parts that carry the urges toward sin or human weakness. And so the goal becomes not to get to the finish line of perfection. So we do have this call to run the race, but that’s run by loving and cherishing unconditionally and receiving that unconditional love, specifically in the occasions of our weakness or the places of our weakness.

[01:13:00] Dr. Peter: That’s really connected to what I was thinking about, David, and that is that we can accept and love a part of us without endorsing that part’s agenda or that part’s desires or impulses. Just like we can love another person and his or her parts without endorsing everything of every part of that person, you know, so there’s a space between the acceptance of a part and accepting the reality of what that part’s experience is or how it makes sense of their experience, or what its desires are, what its agenda is or whatever. There’s a space between that acceptance and endorsing. And so sometimes manager parts really struggle with that. If I accept this part, does that mean I’m endorsing what that part is desiring, or the negative impulses, the sinful desires, whatever it is. And then to bring in a lot of gentleness and mercy.

[01:14:08] Dr. Peter: You know, I’m reminded of the scripture, Isaiah. “A bruised reed I will not break. A smoldering wick, I will not quench.” To understand that we are dust and ashes. We are hurting, we are in a fallen human condition. And we often do not know the intensity of what our parts are experiencing because it’s not come to light yet. So a lot of gentleness and kindness, a lot of mercy here with our own parts. Be willing to slow down and hear the story, be willing to set aside judgment, you know, at least initially until we can kind of hear out where parts are. At the same time, we don’t let those parts necessarily drive the bus. We can set some limits and boundaries but that out of love rather than out of fear or out of anger.

[01:15:16] Bridget Adams: And I just kind of tag onto that and say as we are learning to become more and more patient with our own parts and more compassionate with what’s going on inside in our own internal system, that that would extend outward and that we would be ever more ready to cut people slack to know that that’s a part and to know that what might feel like external punishment to our system might be some other person’s parts attempts at self protection. Just as hard as it is to live, you know, in relationship with other people’s parts, to begin to show more of that compassion externally as we learn how to show it internally.

[01:16:07] Dr. Peter: Well, beautiful. Thank you to everyone. We’re going to roll through some announcements now. Our upcoming episode, Interior Integration for Catholics Number 166, Can IFS Be Catholic? Scripture and Parts Work. We’re going to get into the evidence for parts work from a Catholic perspective in Scripture. And that episode begins a whole series where we really are getting into the Catholic roots of Catholic parts work. So just excited about that. We’ve got some great episodes on the way. And then the Resilient Catholics Community, you know, the interest list for our St. Jerome cohort is open. It will be just a few weeks, three, three and a half weeks before we open again on June 1st for new members. The Resilient Catholics Community opens every February, June, and October. And as part of applying to the RCC, you get the PartsFinder Pro. Every applicant to the Resilient Catholics Community as part of the registration process, as part of the application process takes the PartsFinder Pro, it’s a series of 18 measures. And then Souls and Hearts team then writes about a six or seven page report. That report describes 10 to 15 hypothesized parts with their burdens, with their roles, the relationships among those parts, polarizations alignments. We have a library of more than a hundred different parts descriptions, and you can download reports for a fictional man and a fictional woman, a samples to see what those PFP reports are like. They’re in the YouTube description, in the description for this episode. That can really launch your parts work. 

[01:17:47] Dr. Peter: For those of you that are formators, Catholic formators, so these are, you know, therapists, counselors, coaches, priests, spiritual directors, other people who are engaged in helping form others, you know, in their personal formation. We have a retreat in Bloomington, Indiana from August 11th to the 14th just for the human formation of the formators. We’re actually going to be working on removing the beams from our own eyes, and also we’ve got new groups for Catholic Formators that start in late August and September. Check all of that out on our landing page for the Formation for Formators community, which is at soulsandhearts.com/fff. I have been writing a series of reflections on identity, on identity and parts, and you can get those in your email inbox if you’re registered with us at soulsandhearts.com. If you go to the homepage, there’s a blue box where you can get the regular email updates, but you can also go to the archive at soulsandhearts.com/blog. There’s five identities I’m dealing with in this series, and that’s your identity as a beloved little son or daughter of God, your identity as an heir of God, your identity as a friend of Jesus — that one just came out on April 28th — and then your identity as a sheep. This is a really important one. Your identity as a sheep, that one will come out on May 12th, and then your identity as a tabernacle of the Holy Spirit, so check all those out, soulsandhearts.com/blog. Then conversation hours with me, every Tuesday and Thursday, 4:30 PM to 5:30 PM on my cell, 317-567-9594. Would love to to hear from you. And with that, we are going to wrap it for today and I’m going to invite all of you to go ahead and turn your mics on if you’d like to join us as we invoke our patronists and our patrons. So we’d love to hear your voices if you’d like to turn your mics on. And we’ll sort of bring this to a close by doing that. Our Lady, our Mother, Untier of Knots, pray for us. St. Joseph, pray for us. St. John the Baptist, pray for us.