IIC 159: Who Are My Parts and Why Do They Battle Within Me?



Summary

Dr. Gerry Crete helps us unravel the confusion within us, why we have such deep internal conflicts and tensions that pull us in different directions and tear at our hearts.  St. Paul tells us in Romans 7:15, “I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.”  What’s up with that?  Parts.  Parts are up with that, that’s what — or who.  And in this episode, Dr. Gerry and Bridget Adams shed so much light on our internal experience in our fallen human condition.  Join us to learn about how parts, despite their good intentions and desires to help us, can generate impulses toward addictions and other problematic and even sinful behaviors.  Learn how critical it is for parts to be integrated, to collaborate cooperatively with your inmost self, and most importantly, how parts can join in your loving God and neighbor with your whole heart in Dr. Gerry’s experiential exercise.   For the full video experience with visuals, graphics, and discussion in the comments section, check us out on our YouTube channel here:  www.youtube.com/@InteriorIntegration4Catholics

Transcript

Dr. Peter: [00:00:01] What are parts? What are the parts of us? You might say to me, if you’re a long-time listener, “Dr. Peter, you talk about these parts of us all the time, but will you please explain what these parts actually are?” Absolutely. And I’m not going to do it just by myself. I’ve got a wonderful guest and co-host with us tonight as well. In this great adventure of growing to understand ourselves and to love ourselves so that we can better understand and love God and our neighbor, we have to understand our parts, and understand them deeply. We are together on a great adventure of finding out how fearfully and wonderfully God made each of us in every one of our parts. Yes, we are ontologically good. That’s good in our essence. We are very good according to God, and we are also good in our parts. You might say we are particularly good. In the last episode, we did a deep dive into who is our innermost self, and now we are back and we’re going to get into who are these parts? How do we understand parts in a way that is informed by internal family systems concepts, but also firmly grounded in an authentically Catholic understanding of the human person?

Dr. Peter: [00:01:23] In this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, we bring together the best of not only religious and spiritual material, but also secular resources for understanding ourselves. In St. John Paul II’s address to the tribunal of the Roman Rota, on the 10th of February 1995, he said, “Only a Christian anthropology, enriched by the contribution of indisputable scientific data, including that of modern psychology and psychiatry, can offer a complete and thus realistic vision of humans.” Throughout all of 2025, we will be bringing in the insights from internal family systems developed by Dr. Richard Schwartz, and harmonize those insights with the truths of the Catholic faith to help you live out the three great loves and the two great commandments: to love God, your neighbor, and yourself. And I am bringing you the best of Catholic professionals in the field as my co-hosts and as my expert guests to share with you their insights, their understandings, their experience. And why? To help you not only overcome obstacles and deficits in your human formation, but also to help you thrive and flourish in fully embracing your identity as a beloved little son or daughter of God, and not just with one or two parts of you, but with all your parts, all your parts sharing in the bliss of a deep union with God. So I’m so excited about this. Let’s get on with this. Let’s get on with understanding those parts of us.

Dr. Peter: [00:03:08] I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, also known as Dr. Peter. I am your host and guide in this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast. I am so glad to be with you. I am a clinical psychologist, a trauma therapist, a podcaster, writer, co-founder and president of Souls and Hearts. But most of all, most of all, I am a beloved little son of God, a passionate Catholic who wants to help you to taste and see the height and depth and breadth and warmth and the light of the love of God, especially God your father, and also Mary, your mother, your spiritual parents, your primary parents. I am here to help you embrace your identity as a beloved little child of God, as a beloved little son or daughter of Mary. This is episode 159 of the podcast titled, What Are Our Parts in Parts Work? And it releases on February 3rd, 2025. Now I am so excited to have with me on the podcast, for the first time, Bridget Adams as my co-host. Now, Bridget is an IFS level 1 trained coach. She’s the member care coordinator for the Resilient Catholics Community, the RCC. She is a content creator and contributor for the Formation Fellowship, the advanced RCC members who have completed their first year. She is a lead PartsFinder Pro writer and a trainer for Souls and Hearts. She often is doing the second eyes on those PartsFinder Pro reports.

Dr. Peter: [00:04:30] We’ll talk about those a little bit at the end. She’s a facilitator for our foundations experiential groups in the Formation for Formators community, does an excellent job helping formators to really connect with their own parts. She’s a lifelong resident of the Puget Sound area of Washington State. She earned her communications degree at the University of Puget Sound, and during that she was a was a member of the women’s soccer team, and she completed her graduate diploma in education at Queensland University in Australia. She’s been married to her husband, Tim, for 33 years. They’ve been blessed with three sons and they also adopted two daughters after a brief period of time where she was doing some foster parenting. And now there’s a growing number of in-laws, grandchildren. They’ve recently relocated from the foothills of the Cascade Mountains to the Black Hills of South Dakota. Bridget loves writing, hiking, traveling, connecting with people, berry picking, and volunteering as a liturgical photographer. She was one of the very, very first members of Souls and Hearts, one of the very first members of the RCC and our very first cohort. And I am so excited to have you with us today, Bridget. It is so wonderful to have you as co-host for the first time of many times here in the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast.

Bridget Adams: [00:05:49] Thank you, Dr. Peter. Who knew?

Dr. Peter: [00:05:52] Who knew? Right? All these origins. We go way back to almost the very beginning. And I have a vivid memory, when you were like, you know, I could help you edit those reflections you send out. They could use a little editing. Would you be willing to let me edit them? And I was like, sure. And so we worked together in that capacity for quite a while. And then your role in Souls and Hearts just kept growing and growing and growing. And it was so good to finally meet you in person. We’ve been on retreats together, and now it is such a pleasure to have you on our staff.

Bridget Adams: [00:06:23] Thank you so much, Dr. Peter, great to be here.

Dr. Peter: [00:06:27] So I’m sure many of you, maybe almost all of you know Dr. Gerry. He’s a licensed marriage and family therapist in Atlanta, Georgia. He’s the founder and owner of Transfiguration Counseling. He’s a former president of the CPA, the Catholic Psychotherapy Association. And in 2019, he co-founded Souls and Hearts with me. We’ve been going strong for almost five years now. He’s the author of the Litany of the Hearts prayers. He’s the author of the book Litanies of the Heart, published last year, 2024, about this time by Sophia Press. And he has been married to his bride, Casey, for more than 35 years. They have three grown children. And it is so good to have you, as has been in the past, so many times. So good to have you back on the podcast, Dr. Gerry. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Gerry: [00:07:12] Great to be here with you and Bridget.

Dr. Peter: [00:07:15] Well, I think we should just kind of get into it here. You know, this whole idea of parts can just sound so, I don’t know what the word is, so unusual, so different. It might be confusing to people, so I thought maybe we could get started by just kind of getting into these definitions. Those of you that have listened to me or viewed me for as long as this podcast been around, almost five years now, know that I love definitions, know that I love to try to try to clarify, like what are we actually talking about? So I guess that’s my first question is, what are these parts?

Dr. Gerry: [00:07:52] Yes. Well, I guess I should tackle that, right?

Dr. Peter: [00:07:55] Well, I think it’d be a great starting point, but hey, you know what? If the spirit’s moving you in some other way, Dr. Gerry, I’m open to that, too.

Dr. Gerry: [00:08:02] I think that it’s interesting. I would almost start by saying that parts are instinctive.

Dr. Peter: [00:08:08] Okay.

Dr. Gerry: [00:08:08] Because we speak using parts language when we don’t even realize it. So a lot of times in our regular speech, we might say something like, hey, a part of me doesn’t really like that idea, right? And we’re using parts language without thinking about it. So there’s kind of an implicit truth to the idea that our internal personality, our internal, I guess self-system is not uniform, that there’s actually some diversity within. Parts represent the diversity within the internal system, within the person themselves. I’ve used this example so many times, that there are times, say, when I’m done with work, the end of the day, that there’s a part of me that is like, oh, I should go to the gym and work out. There’s a part of me that’s like, I got to do this, and I got to do that, and it’s like, kind of busy. And then there’s another part of me that’s like, nah, I just want to put my feet up, have a beer, watch some TV, whatever. So the fact that I have internal conflicts, that I have different ideas even about, you know, what I should do, kind of indicates the basic reality of some inner multiplicity. And so parts themselves, you know, as we discover in understanding internal family systems that they’re a little bit more than just a notion, though. As we get to know parts, we realize that they reflect, sure, aspects of ourselves. But more than that, one could even say a sub-personality, right? And so the idea that parts actually have their own kind of thoughts and feelings and even memories and perspectives on memories, reveal that they’re a little more substantial than just a fleeting thought or fleeting feeling.

Dr. Peter: [00:10:03] So they’re more than just a mood state, is what I’m hearing you say, because sometimes people will identify these different moods and they’ll say, oh, those are my parts, right? I got my sad part. I got my angry part. I’ve got my happy part. But it’s more than that.

Dr. Gerry: [00:10:15] Yeah. Like even when you think about the movie Inside Out, which was so interesting, right, in terms of showing some inner multiplicity, they were based on moods, right? They were based on emotions. And of course, the reality of those characters was that they actually had more going on than just an emotion. But I would say that our parts are definitely more than just a feeling, because they kind of represent a perspective or a way of looking at the world. And we understand, especially from, you know, our experience of trauma. You know, and as a clinician who’s done a lot of work as a trauma therapist, we know that certain parts kind of hold on to burdens from trauma or even kind of exist in a sort of stuck state. These parts can be stuck at certain developmental stages, certain ages. And so there we get this idea that has been around for a little while of an inner child. Right, so we have this idea that there are some parts that are carrying heavy burdens, and they go back to our childhood. And I think that’s also somewhat instinctual for people.

Dr. Gerry: [00:11:23] People kind of get that idea of an inner child pretty readily, I find. But it goes beyond that to understand, whoa, we have multiple different parts within. And one of the brilliances of Dick Schwartz was the way that he categorized parts, so that they could be understood pretty quickly by people, and so we could start to have at least some language around talking about different parts that have different roles. And so I think people grabbed on to that. It just sort of made sense. We know we have parts like I was describing the part that wants to go work out at the gym and do a bunch of things. I mean, that sounds very much like what Richard Schwartz would call a manager part. And my other part that just wants to veg out and do nothing. I don’t know if you’d call that a firefighter, but it’s not really a managerial role, but it does have a kind of a protective role because it is trying to give me some recreation. It’s trying to give me some relief. So basically we’re realizing there’s this really deep complexity to our internal system.

Dr. Peter: [00:12:27] So I’m just curious as you’re explaining this to us, Dr. Gerry, what’s coming up for you, Bridget? And I’m curious, like, what kind of thoughts or ideas or questions might be coming up for you and your system.

Bridget Adams: [00:12:39] Thanks, Dr. Peter, and great to hear that description, Dr. Gerry. I have this sense that it’s much easier to intellectualize parts, to think about them, to sort of categorize them, than it is sometimes to actually feel them or experience them. And so being in the moment is oftentimes the best way to have an understanding of what parts are, because you might be, for example, shopping in the grocery store line and thinking, I’ve just got to get out of here, I’ve got things to do, I need to go. And so there’s a real manager-driven process going on. At the same time, there might be a really gentle part that feels bad for the clerk who’s, you know, botching up the orders and for the people behind, you know. There’s all this going on in any given moment of our life. And if we just take a moment to kind of tease it apart, the parts just show up. It’s just really, I think, kind of intuitive in a way.

Dr. Gerry: [00:13:35] You know what’s so interesting? I love that you just said that and you brought me back because as you were saying, that I was realizing that within me in this moment, like in the last few minutes, that there definitely was an intellectualizing manager part that showed up because I was being called upon to explain some concept. And there’s some anxiety around that, of course, because here I am on this podcast and lots of people listening. I’m thinking to myself, am I going to say the wrong thing? Am I going to explain it well enough? Will people get it or not, you know? So basically, I was suddenly aware of my own part that was quite busy with a lot of anxieties, but also a little bit of energy, a little bit of enthusiasm as well. But, you know, that that was going on. And as soon as you said what you said, Bridget, I was able to like connect a bit with that part, and I was able to slow down just a little bit. And that actually felt really good.

Dr. Peter: [00:14:31] Because, you know, we’re not just about the head, we’re also about the heart. And, you know, I’m just reminded of your book. And on page 300 of your book, there’s this wonderful diagram. And I remember the hand-drawn diagram before dear Dr. Glafke used his technical skills to bring it into PowerPoint or whatever he did. But yet, in the heart, are the parts, right? The parts are not sort of outside of the heart, but they’re actually in the heart. And so there’s this really experiential aspect to parts that is just so intrinsic to them and to how we relate with them. And so I love it that you were like bringing it home to the experiential aspects of this. So thank you, Bridget. I was really keying in on that as well. And now I’m actually getting more in touch with my parts, you know, because I get parts that are all up about producing this, you know? Do we have the sound right? Do we have the images right? And so it’s such a relief to be with both of you. Like my parts take comfort in being with both of you and knowing that, yeah, we can be here together. It’s a very different experience than doing the podcast as a solo cast, you know?

Dr. Gerry: [00:15:42] Yeah. So what just sort of came up for me there is that I don’t know that I like the idea of thinking about the parts apart from the inmost self. And I know we did a whole episode on the inmost self. I’m not going to explain all that. But when my part was sort of on his own, kind of like, go! Right, clean this, you know, perform. Then, you know, there was some anxiety about it. And when I slowed down, I can connect with that part of me. And so there became a little bit more of a connection between my inmost self, my deeper spiritual center, my core of who I am in a sense, and with this part. And the fact that the part and the self were feeling connected for that moment was what softened, which is what supported this part in feeling safe and feeling like he could relax a little bit. And so I think you can’t really talk about parts without also talking about the inmost self or innermost self, because it’s all about a connection that is going on there and a relationship, almost like they’re holding hands. And so I think that the part of me that’s performing right now does a lot better when it’s self-led, when it is connected with self, not when it’s feeling kind of on its own, kind of as an island or as some kind of sink-or-swim situation for it. So anyway, that’s what was coming up for me and actually helps me in this very moment.

Dr. Peter: [00:17:16] I’ve got parts that are just so curious about how this is all landing with you, Bridget, because you kind of kicked us off with this particular avenue. So, yeah, what’s going on inside for you right now with parts and all of that?

Bridget Adams: [00:17:28] So I came in not really with any expectations of how this might go or what. But I did have an understanding that I have a part that would freeze if asked to give a definition live. You know, I’d want to have a cue card up or a prompt screen or something. So part of preparing my parts to come in and do this was to recognize it’s okay to be the heart if you’re not the head. It’s okay to just come in and be yourself and be with Dr. Gerry and Dr. Peter. And honestly, I think that’s the greatest gift of parts work. It isn’t having this chart that shows who’s in charge on what time of the day, or who led what chapter of your life. That’s not it. It’s living in the moment with greater peace, with clarity, with those eight C’s of the innermost self. And really, the fruits of getting to know your parts is about living and loving. Like you’ve often said on the podcast, it’s not about having a degree in part-ology or having, you know, the diagnostic tools to know exactly what’s happening in every system. You know, so a lot of great fruit from just knowing about parts and then having some understanding of my own system.

Dr. Peter: [00:18:42] Well, we kind of see that when we do the PartsFinder Pro, right? This is for those that apply for the Resilient Catholics Community membership. There’s this set of instruments, 18 measures that we give. And we do go through this process of helping to identify hypothesized parts. We can’t really see the parts through the PartsFinder Pro, but we can sort of sense their roles or their burdens. So we make some inferences about that. But that can be a very sort of heady thing, a very analytical thing on the part of the writer. But it could also be, and this is what we’re finding is more effective, is it could be a heart thing, where we’re actually connecting, you know, on a part-to-part kind of kind of level in a way that’s self-led. And that has been really rich to kind of discover in terms of helping people that are applying to the RCC to understand their parts better. But again, there’s a difference when they understand sort of theoretically or intellectually who these parts are. It’s very different when they begin to connect relationally, experientially, emotionally with these parts.

Bridget Adams: [00:19:46] So true. And oftentimes in the consult, after they’ve had a chance to kind of digest the material in the PFP, you can also hear parts up around. And there’s one part in particular that people are very commonly saying, so the report landed really well. You guys got it right, except for this one part. And before they even tell me what the part is, I often know it’s an angry part. Just like, I worked through all my anger. I don’t have any more anger, but thanks anyway. You know, like I’ll pass. And it’s so much fun to just know, like, that’s okay. I don’t have to convince them. I don’t even know for sure that they have an angry part. The goal is that they would at least hold some openness or some space for parts that they might not want. And I think that’s one of the most beautiful things about IFS is learning to love parts that we’ve been rejecting our entire life in our own system, and learning to love others around us who may have very difficult, challenging parts, and understanding that that isn’t the whole person, that that’s just a part of them.

Dr. Peter: [00:20:48] Right. And yeah, Gerry, I’m just curious because I just have a sense that you might — and maybe I’m wrong about this, so you can tell me. But you might have a direction you want to take us with this because I just so respect, you know, kind of where you are not only with your head on this, but with your heart.

Dr. Gerry: [00:21:06] Yeah. I think I want to talk about parts and their flourishing, but I’m going to hold for a moment because that was coming up when I heard Bridget talk. And then just in that last statement, I was, you know, reflecting on the issue of addiction and the fact that we have parts that, you know, can engage, if you will, or promote some kind of addictive behavior or compulsive behavior. And I think that we have a tendency, right, to have, of course, manager parts that are horrified by our parts that, you know, are promoting addictive behavior, compulsive behaviors. And so their goal is to eradicate or banish or shame these other parts. And I think that’s kind of a natural reaction to shame, right, is to push something away. But the problem with that is that people have a hard time, I think, grasping that their parts that are the most problematic or shameful or difficult, you know, are actually behaving in those ways to try to protect the system. And also perhaps there’s other reasons too, right, related to trauma, related to, you know, possibly some kind of traumatic reenactment or some kind of coping means or whatnot. There could be lots of reasons, but they’re not inherently evil. But we treat them like they are, and the more we push them away, the more they kind of, you know, claw their way back. And so that’s why anybody who’s worked as an addiction counselor knows that relapses are so common. Somebody can go through a whole treatment program and be even sent to residential treatment and do all this work, and yet they still relapse. And I think it’s because, you know, even in well-meaning programs, the parts that, you know, the problematic, so to speak, parts are being shamed through that whole process, and they’re being buried, but they’re not being reintegrated in a healthy way. And so I think what IFS does, which is brilliant, is that it teaches a way to engage those parts with love and compassion and understanding that those parts have probably never experienced.

Dr. Gerry: [00:23:38] So you’re actually bringing those parts in, not pushing them away. And to love those parts means you have to start off by at least understanding them. Understanding where did this begin for that part? How does this part feel about its situation? What is it afraid of will happen if it stops engaging in this compulsive behavior? And really walking with, being with that part and helping the other parts of the system realize that they that they can participate in the process of helping the part rather than exiling that part. And so suddenly the whole system sees that part differently. And there’s a lot of work, though, that goes into that, because for most of us, depending on how old we are, right, it could be decades of internal systemic banishing and shaming of some parts. So I guess that was what was coming up for me, was just, it’s a radical new way of treating addiction.

Dr. Peter: [00:24:46] I was thinking about what you were saying and feeling that and, you know, thinking, yeah, parts are not just these sort of constellations of emotions and body sensations and guiding beliefs and assumptions and so forth. They also have needs. And I was thinking about it in terms of attachment needs, thinking about in terms of integrity needs and thinking about, especially in addiction. And I’ve heard you talk about this before. I believe this is absolutely true, that addictive behaviors are perceived by parts as a solution to a problem, as a way to try to get needs met. And so there’s actually a good intention behind the impulses, behind the drives toward certain behaviors that could be really, really destructive, and so forth. That is something that I think is really beautiful about internal family systems, is that it captures something of the ontological goodness of these parts.

Bridget Adams: [00:25:43] Amen. It also walks in the footsteps of our Lord. If you think about how he met the outcasts, the lepers, the tax collectors, the Pharisees, like they were not to be had. They were not to be dined with, not to be engaged. And he saw their good intentions. They weren’t just a bad person because they were collecting taxes or all the bad things, right? They were a beloved child, a beloved daughter, son, and someone who would benefit greatly from that contact. And that’s the beauty of doing this work internally, is bringing that God-given beauty of the innermost self to the parts that are often outcast within, and often outcast in our external relationships as well. It’s so common to hear people talk about a narcissist or a this or an ick, right? Someone with an addiction being an ick. And really, that’s just putting them in a little box as if they were an incurable. And that’s not how we’re led.

Dr. Gerry: [00:26:54] Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that, you know, when you’re labeled as, I don’t know, an alcoholic or something, that’s a definition in a sense of who the person is. And I get where there’s a value in owning the problem. And so I could see why there might be a process there where a person has to identify that way in order to truly own the problem. But I think ultimately, I don’t believe it’s good to ultimately identify that way. I prefer to be identified as, like Dr. Peter said at the beginning, as a beloved little child of God. And once we identify as a beloved little child of God, we recognize that our inmost self, our core self, our spiritual center is in his image, right? Is an image bearer, is a reflection of God, and is ultimately a reflection of love incarnate. That is what connects the parts together, that all of the parts naturally will be moved by that love, and they’ll all be a little different. So we have this internal diversity and this unique constellation of parts, and some of them are in different places, right, and needing different levels of healing and unburdening. But the ultimate thing is that all the parts desire this harmony, all the parts desire, even if they’re not acting like that at times, their deepest desire is attachment, connection, ultimately to worship and be in God’s presence. And so as we bring those parts together, they discover their true identity. The whole self-system discovers its true identity. I’ve tended to look at the heart, describing the heart as the inmost self and all the parts you know, not just the inmost. And different people use different language.

Dr. Gerry: [00:28:47] So sometimes it’s tricky. But I do find a lot of the great mystics of the Catholic Church have described, even when they talk about the heart, a deeper center of the heart, right. A deeper depth in the heart that would reflect the inmost self. But the rest of the heart are all these parts. And so when we hear in the Bible, you know, God says, Pharaoh’s heart was hardened. And there are these other languages, it’s parts get hardened, parts take on these restrictive roles or these closed-off roles, these closed hearts. But we also hear in Scripture that, you know, God is going to melt that heart, is going to soften that heart and give us almost like a new heart, if you will, so that there’s this transformation that happens. So all the parts are invited to conversion, all of the parts are invited to relationship with God. And so there’s a kind of a beauty in this notion of diversity, that when the parts are all coming together in feeling loved, receiving love, and wanting to give love back, there is this like amazing internal beauty that’s like, you know, we’re going to get to like the talk of maybe it’s a jazz band or an orchestra, but it’s this inner kingdom. It’s this inner temple which is filled, it’s resplendent with light and beauty and goodness, and it’s multiple lights, you know, together. So it’s this sort of a reflection of how we are called to be a new man or new woman. It’s how we’re called to be reflecting Christ within. It’s how we’re each being transfigured internally and how then that manifests itself externally. So I could talk about this all day. I’ll stop now.

Dr. Peter: [00:30:36] Well, Bridget, just, what do you got? What do you got? Because there’s so much there. And I’ve got some things that I’d love to say, but I have so much curiosity about where you’re at with what Dr. Gerry was just sharing with us.

Bridget Adams: [00:30:50] Well, the image that came to mind is when we are more self-led, we’re aware of our parts. Maybe we’re not in perfect relationship with all of our parts, but we have an understanding that we have parts, and we’re able to bring in more and more self-leadership. It can bring in a calm where it just doesn’t make sense that calm could exist, in places where so much external chaos is going on. And you can just use any example, like a boardroom or a team or people that are trying to work together towards a goal. But you’ve got some people who want to have it be the throw, and some people want to have it be the run, and some people want to have it be the kick. And unless there’s a good coach, unless there’s someone that can, you know, take that all in and then make the play happen, it could end very badly and there’d be a loss, right? And so when Dr. Gerry was talking about that deepest sense of who we are, it really is a reminder of just how important it is to be able to slow down and understand from a parts perspective what’s going on in any given moment.

Bridget Adams: [00:32:01] And those of us with young adults or teenagers or even toddlers can certainly understand what it feels like to be completely overwhelmed emotionally in a moment with dysregulation, right? Just natural things, tantrums or whatever, however they manifest at a different age. And I know for myself, I realized that much of my parenting had been very reactive or very manager-driven. Like if we just try harder, if we just make more rules or whatever, these things are going to work out. And what I’m learning more and more with this IFS approach is really being in self is what makes the biggest difference. Because in self I have greater access to, what would God have me do? What’s the best course of action in this moment? And not just reacting or making it stop or changing the course. Yeah, it’s kind of all over the place. I just, like you said, Dr. Gerry, there’s so much to say that it’s hard to just put it into a little nutshell. But for me it comes down to the day-to-day living, right?

Dr. Peter: [00:33:01] Yeah, the day-to-day. Yeah, where the rubber meets the road, right. And I was thinking about, kind of related to what you were sharing with us, Bridget. I was thinking about this call in the great commandment to love the Lord your God with all thy heart, right? With all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength. And thinking about that’s a call to each of our parts. That’s a call to each of our parts to share in the loving of our God. You know, that when we love God, you know he’s inviting us to love him with the entirety of our being, with all of our parts. No part left out, you know, no part left behind. And it’s not just to be with the one or two or three parts that, you know, our parts determine are socially acceptable or that would be, you know, permissible to sort of be in this curated image that we’re trying to offer to God. You know, the parts in the shop window. But like, he’s reaching out to all of the parts and that he loves each of those parts.

Dr. Peter: [00:34:00] He knows the number of hairs on our head, you know, how much more will he know these different parts of us? And in the fourth Eucharistic prayer, it says that he was like us in all things but sin, right? Our Lord Jesus Christ, you know, enfleshed, embodied, had these parts too, and can resonate from the lived experience. I mean, he’s God, in His omniscience, he would know what it was, but he chose to come down and to be with us in his parts, and so shares with us that as well. And so I was just thinking about like that each of these parts is indispensable, that we cannot be fully who we are without them, and how beautiful it is when they can join in the music with their own particular instrument, or how they can contribute their own particular and unique ways to loving God and to loving our neighbor, if they are able to take in the love that they need and have their attachment needs and their integrity needs met, and if they can share in the graces, you know, coming through the innermost self.

Dr. Gerry: [00:35:04] You know, it’s interesting to me. We have, you know, someone like Saint Augustine talking about his disintegrated self at one point, and you see some language in some of the early church fathers and others talking about fragmentation or chaos and stuff. And I think what’s really fascinating is that there is this call to unity and God being a trinity, but also God being ultimately one. So there’s a paradox, but we’re called to a kind of a unity. And I think that what that unity means is not where the parts disappear or the parts are just sort of, you know, kind of fused into one. But where the diversity that is there, is they’re all in a kind of a union of love and in a kind of harmony. So I’ve sat with that for a while now. And the one thing that I’m going to explore some more, but I’ll introduce the idea now, because I don’t know if I talked about it too much. But as I’ve been reading Saint Bonaventure and he gets some of this from another writer, but he also gets inspired by Pseudo Dionysius that I’m just choosing to call Saint Denis. So rather than Pseudo Dionysius the Areopagite, which is an awesome, cool name, I’m just going to go with Saint Denis for now. He’s the writer of the Mystical Theology and other writings that are rather beautiful. But Saint Denis talks about the hierarchy of angels, so that’s something that we know of. But Saint Bonaventure actually brings that with it in his writings, this idea that there’s a hierarchy of angels within us.

Dr. Gerry: [00:36:51] And that blew me away. Because I don’t know, medieval mystics and writers and theologians weren’t thinking about the internal person the way that Dick Schwartz describes it, right. We have to be careful, like some of our concepts can’t just simply be mapped onto them. But nevertheless, this notion that there’s an internal hierarchy within. If there’s an internal kingdom within us, which is a major thesis of a lot of my work, and that there’s this internal hierarchy within us, then there’s something reflective at least, or analogous to this hierarchy of angels. And when I imagine heaven, as limited as I’m able to imagine, and I’m imagining these different angels, all different levels, and they’re not fighting with each other. And even though there’s a hierarchy and they’re all like, beautifully, I imagine singing, and the highest is Seraphic angels and pure fire. Basically, the fire of love and devotion toward God and all these other angels. And they all have different roles and different things that they do, and for God. But it’s all this beautiful oneness in heaven. So I think of that as a reflection of a diversity in the angelic order. And I think that, to some extent, within us is this diversity that is beautiful too, in its way. And so our parts are kind of analogous to that in some way. And so it’s a beautiful thing. And so I’m really on a kick right now to emphasize the beauty of that internal harmony and the beauty and goodness and resilience of our parts, even as they are now.

Dr. Gerry: [00:38:30] So I know we tend to, like, always qualify our parts and their burdens and their difficulties. And of course, they’re burdened with sin. We’re living in a fallen world. But I’m really moving in this direction of seeing how the parts have been resilient in our lives all along, and our parts have been so helpful to us all along, and our parts have been growing in virtue, sometimes more or less, you know, but our parts, I would say, we can see them as crowned with virtue. And that it’s the self that can adorn, with Christ’s help and grace, can adorn our parts with virtue. And that’s an affirmation, even a part that’s not perfect. And none of them are perfect, most likely. But when you see a part, and that part has struggled with being needy, or struggled with being a doer, or struggled with being afraid or something, and we’re able to see past that and see how even despite that struggle, the part has been courageous or the part has been loving or the part has been kind. Then we start to recognize how our parts have been acting with the gifts of the Holy Spirit in little ways. Sometimes more, sometimes less. But we start with however they have been manifesting those gifts, and we affirm them, and they love that, and they grow in that. And we want to see those virtues flourish in all of our parts. I’ll stop there. I get on a tangent.

Dr. Peter: [00:40:18] Oh, no. I was thinking, and maybe I was getting back into my headspace a little bit, but I was thinking, you know, for those of our viewers, those of our listeners, you know, that might be thinking along this more along anthropological or philosophical lines, how it’s been said that parts have an accidental form, but not a substantial form. So they don’t exist, as you were saying, separate from the person. We want to be careful not to get too fragmented with this and sort of saying, yeah, I’ve got 12 people within me, you know, 12 separate persons. They’re not, they don’t exist. And this is, I think, partly what you were getting at with the need for them to be connected back to the innermost self is that they don’t exist separately from our person, although there are these distinctions inside. You know, phenomenologically they have a separate sort of distinction within and that provides for that multiplicity, that diversity that you were saying. So we want to preserve that sense of there being a multiplicity, yes. But that there’s also, as you were saying, that unity, you know, kind of like an orchestra is one, but it’s also many, you know, or jazz band is one, but it’s also many. So I was just wanting to kind of include that in there. And we have a couple of articles about that if you want to get into that more, in the archive of reflections about the innermost stuff. I’ll put some links in the YouTube description to some of our writings about that. We’ve done a little bit more of philosophical work on that as well. So folks that want to dive into that a little bit more can have that.

Bridget Adams: [00:41:53] And maybe I could bring in a more kindergarten approach.

Dr. Peter: [00:41:55] Because sometimes these parts are phenomenologically really young, right? I mean, that’s one of the things that I discover in myself and other people that a lot of times these parts feel themselves to be fairly young. The kindergarten approach, you know.

Bridget Adams: [00:42:11] So here’s the kindergarten approach. Drum roll please. I just thought, the Russian doll example. Don’t ask me how they came about, because I have a part that likes to shop for very unique international gifts. I didn’t know who I was going to give them to, and now I’m like, oh, maybe they’re meant to be given to our audience just in an example. But you have all these different parts. They’re all part of one doll, and they don’t all look exactly the same. And they’re different sizes and shapes, but they are each unique but a part of the one. And I think in my own life, what happened for most of my life was all you saw was the one on the outside. You saw this one because this was the one that was, like you say, in the shop window. So perhaps most recently it would have been maybe like a Catholic black belt part, like if there’s one thing I’m going to be, I’m going to be a devout Catholic, and I’m going to, you know, follow all the rules and I’m going to show up at all the things, and I’m going to pray the things and all. And it was a priest once who really, I guess, helped me to break out of that a little bit. And this wasn’t IFS, but I’ve been able to relate it back to IFS. He said, “Bridget, it’s okay to pray to God and tell him you’re angry.” And this kind of goes back to the parts we don’t want to have, right? And I was like, “What?” And he goes, “Yeah, you can. He already knows it.” And then I was like, “Oh, that’s true.” So I tried it and I went and, you know, kind of raised my fists at God.

Bridget Adams: [00:43:34] This was the first for me. And this was only a few years ago, like in the last decade, right? And I had parts that were so reactive that I literally waited until I could see him and kind of, like, tug on his vestments and be like, “Are you sure I’m not damned? Like, that felt so scary to talk to God like that.” And he just smiled and said, “Yes, it’s okay. God knows.” And you know, so that might be like a little part that just doesn’t feel safe expressing anger. And so where do they hide? They hide inside this other part that can protect them. And so these parts have really good intentions and they have really good reasons for remaining hidden. So I didn’t bring this with, you know, an agenda. It just spoke to me and we’re talking about how they’re all different and yet they’re part of the same. And sometimes people we know only know one dominant self-like part of us, and they don’t have any idea of the multiplicity. And same when we see other people. We just put them in that one outer doll. This is who they are. I loved your podcast episode where you talked about it in terms of if you’re driving and there’s five different, I think you said levels of understanding the person. So if someone cuts you off on the road, there’s one aspect of saying, “Well, that’s just a total jerk right there!” And that guy, you know, and like really letting him have it inside. And then there’s like all the way down to, “Oh, maybe they’re having a medical emergency.” But then everything in between. It’s a fascinating concept and it feels like you can always go deeper.

Dr. Gerry: [00:45:04] When you showed those Russian dolls, I was thinking there was some meme or maybe it’s like a Far Side type cartoon that shows that doll going up and ordering a ticket at the airline or somewhere and saying, “I’ll have one ticket, please.” And then the person behind the counter goes, “Yeah, right. Try again.” That kind of thing. Because because they know there’s like eight of them in there. So that’s silly, but I love the analogy. I think it’s really, really good to reflect on, you know, those different parts that are being hidden by another part that we don’t see. And I think that there’s something powerful about recognizing that reality in others as well as in ourselves. And I think it can really help us with compassion. And I think that will soften those exterior parts when we assume that, when somebody is being difficult with us, that it’s protective. When we actually do our own work and we work with our own protective parts and we learn, you know, we have compassion with our own self that way, and those parts soften and we are able to work with our exiles and bring them home and all that. Then all of a sudden we see everybody else differently, and we start to see their protective parts, and we learn that it doesn’t just require supernatural grace to be forgiving, although it might. It’s actually just very humane to approach people with that level of understanding. And it changes relationships. People soften when you lead from the heart, right, from self-led parts or the self itself, and their protective parts start to feel safe and not judged. So it’s powerful. It’s powerful relationally.

Dr. Peter: [00:46:55] I’m wondering how you would answer this, Dr. Gerry, because we hear this a lot from folks that are inquiring about parts that are reaching out during conversation hours to me, or they’re in the RCC. And this question comes up. Where do parts come from? And when do they come into existence? Because a person’s discovered a new part, you know, and they’re like, oh, did that part just get created, or has this part been with me for a long time, or did that part come into existence and sort of fracture off when I was six years old and in that terrible situation? So just the origins of parts, I guess.

Dr. Gerry: [00:47:30] Yeah. Well, I mean, I think one answer is simply, we don’t know, right. Like we can’t put it under a microscope and analyze it forensically. So I would preface it with, on some level, we don’t know. So there are different schools of thought. I mean, Dick Schwartz, who founded Internal Family Systems, or developed it, I think would say we are born with a set number of parts. And you know what? I tend to agree with him. And I think there are other points of view that would say instead that parts sort of manifest over time. But like, because I have a lot of training in ego state therapy, and I think, in that parts work approach, they probably would have room for diverse views. But there is a tendency to view parts as like constantly shifting ego states. But even in IFS like you could have a part show up and appear a certain way, but it’s really just a front, perhaps, and you have to work a little bit to get at that part more. And so I think that another difference between, you know, ego state therapy or other parts approaches and IFS is this distinction between self and parts. Whereas in ego state therapy, for example, they would say that all the different parts together make the self. Rather than in IFS, it makes a distinction between parts and self.

Dr. Gerry: [00:48:48] So once you make that distinction between parts and self, I believe Dick Schwartz is right on that point, that there is a self that is, on some level, qualitatively different than the parts. It’s that innermost core spiritual center. And so I agree with him as well on the idea that parts kind of were born with them, and maybe they reflect on some level neural development. I’m not a neuropsychologist or a neurologist to understand exactly how our brain is formed over time, and to what extent parts are reflective of the brain’s development. But I think we have neural pathways that get either used or unused. Some pathways get used more, and so they develop in a stronger way and some in a less strong way. So I think there might be some scientific evidence to explore here, down the road, but it’s not going to be me that’s going to do that research. So I tend to see parts as being somewhat consistent over time, but they are capable of change and development. So the origin, I think we are born or we’re conceived, maybe even, I don’t know to what extent, with this, if not fully manifested, the sort of seed-like internal inherent presence that will develop at least into parts in the same way that all of us, our bodies, develop.

Dr. Gerry: [00:50:17] And then when we’re born, we kind of come with that. And I think we know to some extent that, as newborn babies, we come hardwired with all sorts of emotions that are not taught. And a lot of the research, Panksepp’s, for example, shows that these emotions, we don’t need to learn them. We have fear naturally, and we have a natural desire, a seeking kind of curiosity naturally. And we have a capability of panic, and we have the capability of sadness. We have the capability of all these different emotions. And so newborn babies express these things. So I tend to believe that parts come with very early. And what happens though is that our different parts developmentally become, if you will, stuck or at least compromised in some way based on trauma, based on life experiences and so on. And we are all adapting and coping in various different ways. And so our parts are affected. And so the more that we can meet the parts where they’re at, maybe to some extent figure out where developmentally they were impaired or were they, you know, got stuck, basically what they needed that they didn’t receive. Once we can start supplying those things, then we see all these different parts flourish into what they’re meant to be.

Dr. Peter: [00:51:36] Right. And that’s a really different model than where the treatment of multiple personality disorder or dissociative identity disorder was in the 70s and 80s into the 90s, even to this day, there are a number of clinicians that really do believe that the goal is to take all these parts and fuse them back into one coherent personality. In other words, that the single personality was shattered by trauma, and that the goal is to take these alters or these identities and fuse them back into one cohesive kind of more or less uniform personality. And one of the things that I have really appreciated in doing clinical work with folks that have high degrees of dissociation, trauma, is that, no, actually, we can think about this systemically. We can think about this in terms of parts, you know, that these alters or these identities are really parts that are very disconnected from the rest of the system. There’s not a lot of sort of linkages or communication. And so the treatment goal then changes quite a bit from trying to force them or fuse them back into a homogeneity to, how can we foster the relationships among parts? How can we foster a sense of trust inside? How can the innermost self be a secure internal attachment figure that can lead and guide the system, right? How can parts begin to trust that that’s there? And that was a total game-changer for me when I was introduced to internal family systems.

Dr. Gerry: [00:53:14] Yeah, I’m doing a lot of looking at movies and films, television shows from a parts perspective in my Parting Thoughts blog or article series. And there’s a few movies I do want to get into that present multiple personality disorder in the way you describe, where the solution is fusion. And I think fusion as a solution is pretty out of vogue. It has been for a while. Maybe there’s still people that believe that. But I think you see in, you know, there’s been a number of soap operas, for example, that love to have multiple personality disorder because it’s so dramatic, right? Maybe there’s been improvements over time in the nuancing of that. When I did my review of The Crowded Room, which was a one season television series that was based on the life of, I’m going to forget his name, Billy something. And that was a real case in the 70s, and it was the first case where someone was acquitted of a crime, I think in his case it was rape and assault. But he was acquitted because it was shown that he had multiple personality disorder. So that was a huge deal because before then most people didn’t really believe it was a real thing, right. And of course, we call it DID now, and it is a real disorder and an extreme case of parts being so dissociated that there’s memory loss often, that the parts are extraordinarily extreme roles. But I thought that program, The Crowded Room, had the best portrayal of various parts and how they communicate that I have seen yet in any program.

Dr. Gerry: [00:54:55] Now, was it perfect? No, probably not perfect. There would be some things I might do differently with it. They didn’t really get into fully the treatment in terms of what happened to all those different parts, but they definitely showed them in a way that was amazing to watch the dynamic of those parts and to see the parts actually, when he’s on the stand for his trial, like to actually see what happens to those different parts and how they’re kind of fighting internally during that process. Unbelievable the way they depicted it, as opposed to just the Hollywood thing where the person just starts shaking and it changes. They’re trying to make sense of the difficult concept, but our understanding has evolved and people still don’t understand it, to recognize that the fact that we have multiple parts is a beautiful, God-given thing, that our inner multiplicity is something to be celebrated and that it speaks to our uniqueness as a person. In the past, sometimes you might hear, oh, everybody’s special. I’m not unique. Nobody’s unique. Well, I don’t think so. I think people are unique and special, and they are unique and special in the way in which their diverse parts are all different, and there’s nobody else that has all of your parts exactly the way that you have them, I think. And when we actually celebrate that instead of pathologizing that, then we do grow in our sense of self-worth. We do see the beauty and the complexity of the human person.

Dr. Peter: [00:56:32] Well, I’m considering like the time we have left, and I’m wondering if we could do a brief experiential exercise, you know, seven minutes, ten minutes, twelve minutes maybe. I’m just wondering. And we don’t script these things out ahead of time, but I’m wondering if it would be possible for us to do that together in some way.

Dr. Gerry: [00:56:52] I’ll have a part that’s dying to lead it.

Dr. Peter: [00:56:55] All right. And did you want us involved in it? Did you want to try that? All right. And, Bridget, you know, again, no pressure here if parts are not up for that, but I was just wondering what if, because we’ve never done it this way before. Like, what if the three of us were involved with this? Now, how does that sound to you?

Bridget Adams: [00:57:12] I mean, it actually sounds really fun.

Dr. Peter: [00:57:16] And so, Dr. Gerry, super excited that you are going to lead us in this experiential exercise. I am really happy to be a participant in it, and I just want to remind people that this is not some kind of psychotherapy. There’s no clinical service. We don’t provide those at Souls and Hearts, but this is like a guided meditation. Or you can think of it as we call them, experiential exercises, where you have an opportunity to enter in into your own world. Take what’s helpful to you. You’re welcome to pause the recording at any time if you want some more time to enter more deeply into your work with your parts. And a lot of freedom with how you use this. We don’t expect that there’s going to be any sort of negative reactions to this, but the possibility is there, so feel free to not participate, you know, to stop the recording, if you feel like you need to reground yourself. Again, it’s not super common, but we acknowledge that possibility could exist. So with that, I’m going to just have you take it away, Dr. Gerry.

Dr. Gerry: [00:58:13] All right. Well, I’m just going to invite you and everyone listening if you want to participate, to take a moment and take a deep breath. I know I need that, just to ground myself. Take a few nice, deep breaths. And I’m going to be inviting you to enter into a space inside. And I’m very open to the fact that you may or may not relate to the spaces that I suggest. That’s okay. So whatever comes up for you is okay. And also, even as I kind of invite certain parts to show up, you may or may not have those parts show up that way, and that’s okay too. So I want to just be open to the fact that I’m talking generally, I’m going to talk specifically to Peter and Bridget right now, but I’m talking pretty generally. Everyone is different. And one day you might feel one way and another day a different way. So I want to leave it open that there’s no one way here. You can’t do it wrong. So I’m going to leave that with you and take a breath and just allow myself my shoulders to drop. Just create a little pathway into the interior world, into your heart. In IFS sometimes they call that a You-turn. But I just say look inside and notice the space inside.

Dr. Gerry: [00:59:59] For me, it’s often that little internal living room space, but it can be a clearing in the forest. It can be a cabin, it can be a chapel, it can be whatever makes sense to you today for your internal world, your internal space. Just take a moment to notice that. I know for me, sometimes I don’t even get an image. Sometimes it’s just a kind of an open inner space. But whatever space is kind of coming up for you, I’m just going to invite you to invite parts into that space. I’m going to start by inviting a part that may, in the past, have felt invisible, a part that may have felt like they were in danger. Maybe a part that felt that it was difficult to trust others. Sometimes this is a very young part. And we’re not pressing this part to show up, but we’re inviting this part. And as we invite this part to be present, we’re letting this part know that he or she is welcome and that he or she is safe now. We’re noticing the many ways in which this part, despite feeling unsafe sometimes, has actually taken some risks, and that this part does experience some hope. And this part has been able to experience calm, even in really difficult situations.

Dr. Gerry: [01:02:40] And to whatever extent we can recognize that, we want to affirm this part. Thank this part. To whatever extent this part has taken a big step in surrendering to Jesus or surrendering to trusting others, we just affirm that. Respect that. Notice that. And so we invite this part, this part that perhaps best exemplifies gentleness and peace. We invite this part, welcome this part into that interior space. We’re grateful for this part. And if it feels right to you to make a special space for this part, if they choose to be present, some special chair, some special spot just for them. I’m going to invite another part to be present if they’re willing today. Maybe that’s a part that has sometimes felt like they were not enough. Maybe a part that felt like they had to adapt to the environment or adapt to whatever other people wanted. Maybe they had to adapt to feel like they were liked. I’m just going to notice this part, if they’re willing to be seen or felt. I want to let this part know that it’s okay to just be you, that you matter. Maybe today you don’t have to be anybody else. You don’t have to cater to anybody else. Let’s just notice for a moment the ways in which this part has actually had humility, that has put themselves second in a good way for others. This part has sometimes self-sacrificed. Just acknowledge that goodness, that willingness to love others.

Dr. Gerry: [01:06:35] But maybe for this moment now, we just want to affirm and delight in this part and noticing what it’s like for he or she to be himself or herself. And as that happens, perhaps we notice this confidence that this part feels just being authentic, being real. And we invite this part to join any other parts in that inner space. And we prepare a little space, a special chair, a special spot for them. A place of honor for each and every part. Let’s take a moment now also to call on another part. This is maybe a part that has sometimes felt the need to be perfect. And maybe behind that was a sense that they were not enough. Maybe this part has been overly busy working, taking action, just having to always be the one who takes care of business, always being the being the one who is responsible. Maybe this part never stops. As we invite this part to be present, if they’re willing, to let this part know that for today, you don’t have to work so hard. It’s okay to play. It’s okay to just be.

Dr. Gerry: [01:09:26] Let’s notice and affirm how this part has been diligent. And thank this part for that diligence. Thank this part for his or her industriousness. It’s been very useful, very helpful. But we’re also inviting this part to be playful, to release the need to be doing all the time. That for now, we’re just excited for this part to be here. And if this part is smiling, or if this part has a joke or just wants to be silly, that’s welcome. They don’t have to be on all the time. Also make a place for this part in that inner space. They also have their own, possibly chair or spot or place, where this part can also join. For today, we’ll just invite one more part to the party. One more part. I’m going to invite a part that might feel like they don’t matter. Their needs are not important. Maybe there’s a part that has had to endure, who’s had to suffer. It’s maybe been dependable, but has always tolerated a burden. We’re just noticing this part if they’re willing to come forward. We’re letting this part know that what he or she wants matters. Their needs matter. It’s okay to ask for what you want. It’s okay to even know what you want. So if you have a part like that, welcome this part to be present.

Dr. Gerry: [01:12:39] And also possibly acknowledge and notice the times when this part has been kind. And maybe notice the times in which this part, despite a sense of suffering or burdening, has made efforts to connect with others, has been a good friend sometimes to others. We just invite this part again to be present, to be seen and encouraged. And again, to know that their needs matter. We invite that part also, if they’re okay with it, to join the other parts in that inner space. Again, preparing, maybe it’s a chair or a spot for them to be included. We notice also how these different parts, whichever ones have chosen to be present, how they are in the room together. Notice the different gifts that each one brings. Maybe that’s peacefulness and gentleness. Maybe that’s generosity and patience. Maybe it’s kindness. Just pause to notice how our different parts can actually be loving to each other and how together they make up a certain kind of beauty that’s within you. And if there are any other parts that want to show up, they’re welcome to. And we’ll just pause for a moment to notice how these different parts might be connected to our inmost self, our core, our spiritual center.

Dr. Gerry: [01:15:39] Notice for a moment how the inmost self delights in, sees, notices, sits with all these different parts, but they’re all welcome, whatever parts were there, whichever parts you were able to connect with, maybe even parts that didn’t make it into the room, but maybe were peeking on the sides. Just thank them all, letting them know just how excited you are to get to know them in their own time. You’re inviting them to something good, something beautiful. You’re inviting them into relationship with each other, with the self, ultimately with God. And just also appreciating the way they relate to others. And so I’m going to invite you to keep those parts close. And slowly we’re going to make our way, whether we’re opening our eyes or we’re just kind of noticing our exterior world. Now we’re going to make our way back into the present moment with each other. Always thanking our parts, always thanking God for the gift that he’s given us, the beauty that he’s given us within. Take a nice full breath as you reengage. And I appreciate this as an on-the-spot moment. So I don’t know how well you all were able to go deep with that, but maybe here and there, it’s all good.

Dr. Peter: [01:18:06] No, no. I mean, it’s interesting to me, like I had an experience because I often will choose a space like parts in the innermost self around a bonfire on the beach. You know, that’s a very common space for my parts to be. It’s a beautiful place and for the first time ever, I’ve had a part, like, come up out of the water. Like that’s never happened before. It was a part of me that really responded to three of the parts that you were calling. Like, all three of those situations or roles were wrapped up in one part of me, and that is the part that I refer to as the little one, who is my shame-bearing part, sharing with me about how cold it was in the water, under the water, way under the surface, not seen by anybody. And this is more historical. I have a relationship with this part, I’ve met this part and so forth, but it was more like being able to flesh out the story of what it was like to live suppressed, unseen, really cold. That was like the new dimension of how cold the water was, in contrast to the special spot by the fire. You know, where there was the warmth of the fire, but also the warmth of the innermost self and the warmth of the other parts, you know, and just the contrast between the light of the fire and the darkness of the depths of the ocean, the warmth, you know, in the circle around the fire versus the chill, the coldness of being down in the depths and the connection and integration, the relationality of being included versus the isolation of being so far away.

Dr. Peter: [01:19:47] I’m not super visual, typically, with my parts, generally speaking, but I could actually see more. I can sense my parts, I can hear them. But this actually turned out to be more visual than typically is the case. Yes, it was multisensory, like the temperature, the touch of the cold and the warmth, and then the light and the darkness, and then the more of, the relational sense of togetherness versus isolation and kind of sharing what some of that was. And it’s so weird because this part came out of the depths not with scuba gear, but with snorkel gear, right? Like, this part’s like 20 or 30 or more feet below the surface with a snorkel, which isn’t helpful down there. So it’s like utterly inadequate for that role. But the idea is that part carried the shame for me to be able to not be overwhelmed with shame or a deep sense of inadequacy, or not being enough in order that the other parts could continue on. They would not be overwhelmed by it. And there’s appreciation from the other parts that that part held that burden for so long so that we could, you know, as a system, continue to function. So that was kind of what the gist of the experience was for me. And it was really beautiful, Gerry, thank you for that. 

Dr. Gerry: [01:21:02] I saw you smiling a few times. And so I wasn’t sure if you were like disconnecting from the experience or what. So it sounds like, no.

Dr. Peter: [01:21:09] Just beautiful to be able to see and, you know, to kind of go through some of the polarizations that have been historic, you know, like the parts that really didn’t want that part included because they sensed that if that part came and blended and overwhelmed the system, that we wouldn’t be able to function. And there were some reasons why that would have been really dangerous or really maladaptive in some of the circumstances that I found myself in growing up. So, yeah, just sort of a kind of a rapprochement around the parts, but with greater sort of clarity about the story, the narrative of it.

Dr. Gerry: [01:21:43] I love it. Thank you. I’m very visual so I don’t have a problem seeing my parts. They morph and they look different sometimes. It’s really interesting when I hear someone like you say you mostly sense them. It’s cool that you were able to visualize.

Dr. Peter: [01:21:56] It was kind of unusual. And a lot of that was the contrast between the light and the dark and the fire and the absence of light. So thank you. Wow. I’ll have to reflect on that, do some more work with that as well.

Bridget Adams: [01:22:10] I echo what Dr. Peter said about not normally seeing parts and having this be an exception. So for some reason this time I was much more able to see some parts. And I also had an interesting experience with heat. Our meeting place was a sauna, of all places. And the first part that I invited in was very little. And so there was a part of me that was like, wait, babies can’t go in saunas. Like, hold the phone here. And then just be like, no, we’ll adjust the temperature. We’ll make sure we don’t stay in too long. So there’s kind of this negotiation around bringing in a little one into a sauna. So I could recognize really probably more of an intellectual part, just kind of showing up in the midst of that reflection, jumping ahead. And in a lot of cases, I find that the experiential exercises for me and for my system are better experienced a second time, like when there’s a first time I often have, like thinking parts or doing parts or parts that kind of jump ahead or want to know how it’s going to end up. They want to know what are the answers going to be or what are the fruits. And so I look forward to going back with this. But it was really neat to be able to see some parts, which is rare for me. Thank you.

Dr. Gerry: [01:23:27] Awesome. I wonder what made that difference. Maybe it was just the Spirit, but that you both were able to see a little more.

Dr. Peter: [01:23:33] Yeah, it’s unusual, like I said. And all of our viewers, all of our listeners, we’d like to hear what this was like for you. Let us know in the comments section of this episode on YouTube. For those of you that might not have checked us out on YouTube before, we’re at InteriorIntegration4Catholics, with the number four instead of the word spelled out. And that’s on YouTube, you can check that out and I will respond to you if you post a comment or a question or a description, especially of what it was like experientially for you to go through this experience with us, we would love to hear what that was like for you. So feel free to engage with us there as well. As we bring this to a close, I’m curious, I’ll ask you first, Dr. Gerry, if that’s okay, and then you, Bridget. What is the one thing, maybe one and a half things, takeaways, key takeaways, that you would like our audience to be able to remember or to hold on to about who are our parts? You know, just one thing that you might really want to emphasize as we land this and bring it to a close.

Dr. Gerry: [01:24:43] Yeah, well, I know that I’m talking a lot about parts, especially in Litanies of the Heart, that have wounds and burdens. And so there’s this focus on trauma. But I’m moving now in a direction to add to that, because I think that’s important to deal with woundedness and trauma. But I’m moving in a direction that recognizes that our parts are rich with resources. And not just to say they’re good. It’s not just a blanket, our parts are good, no bad parts. It’s that our parts are actually talented. Our parts have been resilient. And sometimes we don’t give them the credit they deserve for the ways in which they have helped us and the ways that they have overcome, maybe not perfectly, but how they’ve overcome really difficult things. So I was hoping in this meditation, for example, or the exercise we did, I wanted to bring that home. I was calling on parts that have struggled with something, but then also recognizing how they have beautifully, in so many cases, I don’t want to say overcome, but like despite those challenges have actually came in for us. And I think it’s important to acknowledge that and notice that, you know. It’s like seeing that little kid who was bullied turn around and be kind to someone else, despite the fact they did not themselves receive kindness. And that happens all the time with our parts and we need to notice it.

Dr. Peter: [01:26:26] Beautiful. So this idea that parts not only are good in some abstract, conceptual, theological way, you know, but there’s actually, you know, muscle and flesh on that skeleton, right? Like there’s actually very specific gifts that they bring. Beautiful. Bridget, I wonder if you have something that you would like us to remember.

Bridget Adams: [01:26:52] Thank you, Dr. Peter. And that was beautifully said, Dr. Gerry. I think a key takeaway for me would be that this IFS approach to our human formation, in this grounded Catholic anthropology of understanding the human person, is a pure gift. It’s a pure gift. And when we are able to understand our own parts, understand that we have an innermost self, and to also take that externally and know that our loved ones have an innermost self and have parts, just tremendous freedom, incredible peace, reconciled relationships, the list goes on and on, both interiorly and exteriorly. Just to say again, it’s not just about knowing. It’s about living and loving and how much this aids and benefits our lives in so many ways.

Dr. Peter: [01:27:58] Well, thank you. And this has been such a pleasure and such an honor to be with both of you. Thank you for being with me on this. I just love it when we can come together. So as we bring this to a close, my heart is just very full, just so appreciative of both of you. I just cherish both of you. And I’m so blessed to be able to work with you in Souls and Hearts and all the ways that the relationships have developed amongst us. So just a lot of praise and glory to God for the gift of you in my life and in this work. So I just want to let you know that. And that extends to all your parts, you know, that’s not just maybe parts of us that have worked together more frequently or whatever, but to the entirety of your being. So thank you, Dr. Gerry, thank you so much. It is so good to have you with us. And then, Bridget, thank you for being here with us as well. And what a marvelous debut as co-host. So looking forward to this continuing.

Dr. Peter: [01:28:56] All right, so some announcements The next episode, episode 160, is titled Your Parts, Attachment, and Your Attachment Needs. Bridget will be back as our co-host and Dr. Peter Martin will be returning as our expert guest, and there will be a fascinating discussion of parts and their attachment needs. We’re going to go much deeper into the six attachment needs that parts have.

Dr. Peter: [01:29:22] Again, I’m really encouraging people to come over to YouTube and like us, comment, subscribe. We are building up some community conversations over on YouTube. And again, we’re also including some slides, some additional B-roll, some things that really can help you engage more deeply in the podcast if you want to check us out with the visual component. And again, we edit these, we keep these perfectly suitable for those that just want to hear the audio. Also, there’s a few other things that you might want to be able to take in with the video as well. The Resilient Catholics Community is now open for new members, all during the month of February. So if you’re a Catholic and you really sense that you have a need for structure in your human formation, if you want a program in a community of like-minded Catholics in relationship with other Catholics in small groups, all men, all women, somewhere between 5 and 9, working toward flourishing and thriving as we journey together toward loving God wholeheartedly, that is, with all of our hearts, and loving our neighbors as ourselves. If you want that, check out the Resilient Catholics Community, the RCC. We are into this parts and systems thinking, and you can do an internet search or you can go right to our landing page at soulsandhearts.com/rcc. We are now up to about 400 members, and those members have found the RCC to be helpful in their human formation.

Dr. Peter: [01:30:45] We don’t journey alone. There’s the old African proverb that says, “If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.” And we want to go far in the RCC. We use the best of both secular and spiritual resources to help you experience what love is at the bones level, across all your parts, so that, again, you can go back to loving God wholeheartedly, loving your neighbor as yourself. It’s not just for your head, it’s for your heart. It’s for all your being. Check it out. The RCC landing page, soulsandhearts.com/rcc. Consider doing our 19-minute experiential exercise to help you discern whether it’s a good idea to apply to the RCC at this time. It’s on that landing page, and when you apply, there’s still a mutual discernment process that lasts weeks. It includes the PartsFinder Pro, which we mentioned in this episode. The PartsFinder Pro is a set of 18 measures to help you come to understand 10 to 15 of your parts, managers, firefighters, exiles, how they relate to your innermost self and how they relate to each other. You’ll get feedback on your PFP report through a 6 to 7 page analysis. You can discuss it in a 15-minute Zoom interview with interview with a Souls and Hearts staff member. And Bridget does a number of these. All of that is included in the $499 application fee. You can contact Pam at office@soulsandhearts.com if there’s financial need for a scholarship.

Dr. Peter: [01:32:06] And like I said, we spend hours with your application, going over the PartsFinder Pro data, writing that report, meeting with you on Zoom. And it’s all about like, is this a good time for you? So applying doesn’t mean that you have to join. It just begins that process of discernment. The Formation for Formators community. Okay, so these are Catholic formators who work on their own human formation. Catholic priests, spiritual directors, therapists, counselors, coaches, others who accompany other people in formation on an individual basis. Check out the Formation for Formators community where you have a unique opportunity to work with me, my FFF staff, which includes Dr. Gerry, which includes Bridget, and other formators too, in these small groups. Learn how to apply IFS concepts to your own personal life, all in a way that’s grounded in a Catholic understanding of the human person. We’ve got new groups that start later this month, in February, and also early in March. They’re filling up. Go to soulsandhearts.com/fff for descriptions of those groups, especially the foundations experiential groups. Put a deposit down now to hold your seat. All the details, soulsandhearts.com/fff. And that includes when each group meets, who leads it, when it starts, how many seats are still open. And with that, let’s go ahead and invoke our patroness and our patrons. Our Lady, our Mother, Untier of Knots, pray for us. Saint Joseph, pray for us. Saint John the Baptist, pray for us.

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