IIC 8: The Chasm Between Psychology and Catholicism

Dr. Peter discusses some of his journey to harmonize psychology with Catholicism and invites listeners to get in touch with him as we form a community of Catholics who are committed to both human and spiritual formation and who are willing to put in the work to grow, even in this time of crisis and especially in this time of crisis.

[00:00:00] It’s 1986 and I’m in my high school psychology class with Mr. Callan at Saint Mary’s Central High School in Menasha, Wisconsin. And I am absolutely fascinated. I am fascinated with trying to understand what makes people tick. And I was also very interested in the question of how do we reconcile psychology, especially clinical psychology, with the Catholic faith? Because even in high school, I was fairly serious about the Catholic faith. I was really interested in how do we reconcile these two things: Catholicism, psychology. Can they be reconciled? Can psychology and Catholicism really be reconciled? And if so, how? That’s what we will be exploring today in this episode of Coronavirus Crisis Carpe Diem. Welcome to the podcast Coronavirus Crisis Carpe Diem, where together we embrace the possibilities and opportunities for spiritual and psychological growth during this pandemic, all grounded in a Catholic worldview. I’m clinical psychologist Peter Malinoski with Souls and Hearts. Thank you for being here. This is episode 8, The Chasm Between Psychology and Catholicism. So continuing on with my story. So I went on to Northwestern University with the intention of majoring in psychology. And in that first year, I thought what a wonderful thing it would be to actually begin to work with psychologists and graduate students in clinical psychology. So I got myself a work study job and spent 15 hours a week pursuing the dream. Well, it didn’t actually work out that way. I wound up working for a graduate student on her dissertation.

[00:02:06] The graduate student was depressed, fairly stressed out actually. I only met her supervisor, the actual professor, once or maybe twice, and she seemed cold and distant. I was working transcribing tapes of interactions between people who were depressed, or one person who was depressed and another person who wasn’t. I was actually writing them out longhand in this really depressing room in the lab. You couldn’t take this material out because it was confidential. And so I was sitting in this windowless room in the psychology lab. And the study was on depression. This wasn’t attractive to me at all. And so I moved away from psychology, in part because I couldn’t find anybody that seemed to somehow be joyful and happy with it. A number of things happened. I went off to major in Latin American studies, partly because I wanted to study abroad in Spain, and it fit well with some of my other career goals, and I wanted a field of study that I could apply to any other field I might do in the future. But eventually I went to graduate school and studied psychology. I wanted to work with a mentor who would sort of sit with me and impart wisdom. In retrospect, I was looking for a mentor, somebody to guide me, and I was again really curious about how do you integrate Catholicism with psychology? I was surprised to find that the attitude in the graduate department at my university was that you didn’t talk about spirituality.

[00:03:44] You didn’t talk about spirituality because psychologists were not competent to enter into that field. They were really rigid barriers about bringing up spiritual themes with clients. This was again really distressing to me. I really struggled in graduate school, not only with how to effectively treat clients, because I had some real grave concerns about the way that we were taught to do psychotherapy, but also about the underlying beliefs, the underlying worldview, the anthropology that undergirded the practice of psychology. Again, remember, I’m passionate and have been for years at this point to connect the practice of psychology with Catholicism. And there was only one faculty member who had any identifiable religious affiliation. There was one professor in my graduate program who was a practicing Mormon. That was it. And in fact, there were many, many ways in which the faith or the belief in Christianity was subtly undermined, was ridiculed, was put down. I made it through. I graduated. I came to Indianapolis to work in private practice, and I found that there was an intense interest in clients seeking clinical psychology grounded in the Catholic faith. It was much more than I ever even imagined. And at that time, I was pulling in clients from as far away as Cincinnati, Chicago, Louisville.

[00:05:18] Clients were coming miles and miles, hundreds of miles, in some cases, in order to find a therapy that not only sort of tolerated the faith, but to find a therapy that embraced the faith, to find a therapy that was solidly grounded in Catholicism. That’s what they wanted. So for the last 19 years, I’ve been practicing psychology full time here in Indianapolis as a psychologist. And over those 19 years, I have acquired a lot of experience in helping people cope with different types of stresses, different types of traumas, different types of issues in their life, but grounded in a Catholic anthropology, in a Catholic worldview. And over the last 19 years, I have found ways to bring together the practice of psychology grounded in a Catholic anthropology. Also, over the last 19 years, I have worked really hard to develop a contemplative life. I have wanted to create a fertile ground for union with God. Because ultimately what I think my entire practice of psychology is about removing the psychological barriers to union with God, removing the psychological barriers to being loved by God, and to loving God in return. Our culture in the Catholic Church in the United States is actually not very psychologically-minded. There’s a lot of emphasis on the spiritual development, and that makes sense, right? Our bishops are priests are trained in the spiritual means that historically have been taught for years, for decades, for centuries.

[00:07:02] I’m concerned, though, that given the disruption in the natural realm that we’re experiencing in our culture, that the natural base is no longer very stable that we’re building on. Grace builds on nature. The supernatural builds on the natural. And one of the things I see over and over and over and over again are people that are coming in and they have intense spiritual desires. They want to love God. They want to die to self. They want to reach out and love their neighbors, and they believe they’re having a spiritual problem. And usually they get referred oftentimes by a priest, sometimes by their doctor, sometimes they seek it themselves. And really what they’re struggling with is a psychological impediment. They’re really dealing with something psychological rather than spiritual. And also in the last 19 years, there have been some great advances. The Catholic Psychotherapy Association came into existence, which brings together hundreds of Catholic psychologists and psychotherapists, counselors from all over the world. It’s a tremendous, wonderful organization that allows us to share ideas so that we’re not all trying to invent the wheel individually with this. I’ve been really blessed to bring together a group of men. You can see them on Souls and Hearts, Fly on the Wall. It’s a group of eight Catholic mental health professionals, men that all come together, and we have a small group where we meet regularly and we exchange ideas and we support each other, we pray for each other.

[00:08:31] And we also occasionally, like I said, once a month have this show that we put on in Souls and Hearts called Fly on the Wall, where we discuss Catholic issues. So you can meet those guys. Also, in the last 19 years, I’ve been working to be able to learn something that I could share with a broader audience. And over the last ten years, I’ve been praying about how should I do that? How should I do that? And I kept getting the message. Wait. Wait. And there were a lot of things I had to work on in terms of developing a sense of humility, a greater sense of humility in terms of being able to have enough confidence that I wouldn’t be wasting people’s time. And now it’s time to bring a team together. It’s time to pull together the tribe, a tribe of Catholics, Catholics that have a passion for psychology and Catholicism, who understand that both psychology and Catholicism are needed to deal with this topsy turvy world and the topsy turvy world inside of us, and Catholics who understand that that integration of psychology and Catholicism is not just for better mental health, it’s not just for symptom relief. But it’s also to overcome the obstacles, the psychological obstacles in getting closer to God. Ultimately, it’s about living out the faith because again, grace builds on nature.

[00:09:51] And also I’m looking for Catholics to join me who are willing to work on themselves. They’re not just going to listen to this podcast or look at a few articles at Souls and Hearts, but actually want to get into it inside themselves. Not just passively, not just listening, but who actually want to study and understand psychology better so that they can apply it to their lives to help them along the road to salvation. Because if you’re doing something psychologically that’s not leading you along the road to salvation, at best you’re wasting your time. And now, in this moment, with this virus crisis unfolding, and not just the health issues, the life and death health issues, but all of the economic dislocation, all of the secondary problems that are coming up as a result of the quarantines and the lockdowns, especially now, we’re going to be seeing more and more of our psychological issues coming up as we experience that stress. For example, the national hotline that provides emergency help to people suffering from emotional distress nationwide. It’s received nearly nine times more calls this year than it did last year at this time. Nine times more calls year over year. Tens of thousands of Americans reaching out for help in the middle of this crisis. And certain areas are seeing even higher levels of that. In Los Angeles, there’s a crisis line out there.

[00:11:24] And Lynn Morris, who is a senior vice president for clinical operations for that hotline, said that 75 times more calls in the month of March than there were in the month of February, 75-fold increase in people reaching out for help. People are stressed. And it’s understandable. And you have likely been impacted by this stress as well. It’s tremendous opportunity. That’s the last part of this. I’m looking for Catholics that understand that this crisis is a tremendous opportunity for understanding oneself better, for understanding one’s own issues better and for healing. I’m looking for Catholics to join me in this endeavor that really believe that all things work together for good for those who love the Lord, and that includes everything related to this virus. I’m looking for Catholics who understand that there are parts of them that probably don’t believe that. A lot of times, when there are parts of us that reject the faith, a lot of times that’s because of some psychological experience that’s being held in some way within us. I really believe that there are lots and lots of psychological impediments to embracing the faith. And that’s not just for people with diagnosable psychological disorders. It’s for people who, people in general, people across the board. We don’t hear about this much. I’m going to tell you just straight out that the vast majority of priests and bishops are not very psychologically-minded. It’s not part of their training.

[00:13:00] It’s not what they were particularly interested in when they went off to seminary. It’s not really their main role. Their main role is to provide the sacraments. It’s to preach the word, to preach the gospel. It’s to, there is some administration and so forth, but it’s to carry out the spiritual aid that Catholics need. So their formation is actually relatively light when it comes to psychological training. And so there’s been this disconnect and this conflict and this chasm between psychology and Catholicism. When I was in graduate school, I rode in about an hour a day, commuted in an hour a day, with the chair of our department. And the chair of our department was an atheist, and he was so puzzled about how I could seem like an intelligent young man, but still believe in all of this Catholicism business. There is no problem between psychology and Catholicism if psychology is understood properly. The problem comes in with all the assumptions that go into the way that people practice psychology. Psychology is always grounded in some epistemology, in some metaphysics, in some philosophy, in some theology, in some worldview. All of those things come together in a worldview. And most people have never experienced an authentic Catholic psychology, psychology grounded in what we know to be true by divine revelation. I think more than ever, we need that in our world.

[00:14:40] I’m looking for people to join me in this community around this theme that psychology is important. Catholicism is critical. Psychology can be harmonized with Catholicism. And it’s incredibly important now, as what people have relied on is being stripped away. So here’s the difficulty I’m having at this point. I’m flying somewhat in the dark here. I’m very used to working full time with clients and individual psychotherapy, and there’s a lot of give and take in that relationship. You get a lot of feedback immediately when you’re practicing like that. And I’m still a full time clinician, almost a full time clinician. I’m working really hard to translate all of the things that I’ve learned in these nearly two decades of being a psychologist and packaging them up in ways that are helpful to you. So I’m really looking for feedback. And this is where I need your help. I really want you to get in touch with me. And we have had some people start. I had a beautiful email from a person detailing her struggle with loneliness and with touch. And it was just really beautiful to hear that person’s story, what they’re struggling with. And it really opened my eyes to a perspective on this whole coronavirus crisis and what people are struggling with in a way I hadn’t thought about before.

[00:16:08] So I need to hear from you. I want to hear those stories. I will respond to you. Email me at crisis@soulsandhearts.com. I’m also going to give you my voicemail number. You can call me and leave me a voicemail 317-567-9594. 317-567-9594. And there’s even a chance I might pick up, you know, there’s even a chance that I might pick up. Because I do very much want us to be able to form that community. I very much want to connect with you, understand what you’re struggling with, because it’s really important. It’s really important for us to be together in the mystical body of Christ. I’m also going to invite you to go to soulsandhearts.com, to the page here, and register for this podcast, sign up for this podcast. You’ll get the Wednesday email and I’m going to be discussing in this coming email, the one that’s coming out on Wednesday the 15th, we’ll have the 50 defenses that I evaluate for, just a list of those. I’m also going to put in there what I say when students ask me if they should major in psychology because they want to become a psychologist or a counselor. And I have very strong opinions about that, as you might imagine. So I’ll put down what my response to that is. It might not be what you think and what my recommendations are for that. You’ll get that if you register.

[00:17:35] We have just started discussing the whole topic of heartset, and I’ve shared with you a little bit about my story, the deep desires I have in my heart to integrate psychology with Catholicism, to harmonize psychology with Catholicism, and the deep desires I have to bring this to you. We’re going to continue with heartset in the next episode. And I’m going to give you a little pro tip about dealing with loneliness. My 17 year old son has begun writing letters, actually handwriting letters, and mailing them to his friends. It’s really interesting how that all started, and my 13 and 15 year olds have also been writing letters, some of them to their grandmother, my mother, and she has appreciated them so much. One of the things that happens when you write a letter to another person is that you are actively engaged with that person in your mind and in your heart as you write that letter. It’s a way of staying connected, and it’s a beautiful thing, especially in this day and age when many people have probably never received a personal handwritten letter or haven’t received one in decades. So I’m going to encourage you to do that as well. And because I’m encouraging you to do that, I was thinking about, when was the last time I wrote a handwritten letter? And it’s been a few weeks, actually, probably three months.

[00:19:02] And so I have decided that I am going to write a handwritten letter to the first three people who email me at crisis@soulsandhearts.com, or who leave a voicemail for me at 317-567-9594 with their address. Obviously, I’m going to need a mailing address in order to send you that. And I’ll respond to the things that you leave me in that email or that voicemail, because again, it’s really important to be connected. I think about my listeners a lot. I pray for you a lot. We’re a small group of people that bring together those particular elements of the passion for psychology, the commitment to Orthodox Catholicism and the desire to work in both of those realms in a complementary way, who want to live that out and are willing to do the work and are willing especially to take advantage of the opportunities in this crisis. So I want to thank you for listening. I want to encourage you to subscribe to this on your favorite podcast provider. I want you to spread the word. Maybe there’s somebody that you know, that’s really interested in psychology and Catholicism or somebody that you know that’s really willing to work on their issues and might benefit from a forum like this. Thank you. And we will invoke our patron and our patroness. Our Mother Mary, Undoer of Knots, pray for us. Saint John the Baptist, pray for us.