IIC 56: What is Essential for Catholics to Recover from Pornography

In this episode, Dr. Gerry Crete and Dr. Peter Malinoski review the essentials for Catholics to recover from pornography use.  We go deeper into the underlying needs that parts have that create impulses to use pornography and remedies, along with a discussion of milestones and how to recognize progress in recovery.

Dr. Peter: [00:00:12] Welcome to the podcast, Interior Integration for Catholics. Interior integration for Catholics brings to you in each episode the best psychological information, essential for your human formation, knowledge that is fundamental in shoring up the natural foundation for your Catholic spiritual life. In this podcast, we confront the tough issues we Catholics have in our day-to-day lives. We confront head-on our struggles in the natural realm, the psychological difficulties that keep us from fully loving our Lord and Our Lady in a deep, personal, intimate way. And we deal with these difficult, demanding issues for one primary reason: to free you to love God our Father, Jesus our brother, the Holy Spirit, who is Love himself, and our mother Mary more and more over time. This podcast helps you focus inward on your interior integration, to help you bring together the different parts of yourself into unity and harmony with God. Together, we are on this journey towards deep transformation in our mindsets, our heartsets, our bodysets, a radical transformation at the core of our being, so that our souls can one day enter into contemplative union with God. I’m clinical psychologist Peter Malinoski, and I’m here with you to be your host and guide. This podcast is part of Souls and Hearts, our online outreach at soulsandhearts.com, which is all about shoring up the natural foundation for the Catholic spiritual life, all about overcoming psychological obstacles to being loved and to loving God and neighbor. This is episode 56.

Dr. Peter: [00:01:45] It’s released on February 22nd, 2021. It’s the eighth episode in our series on sexuality and the second one on pornography, and it is titled What Is Essential for Catholics to Recover From Porn. I am really happy to have Dr. Gerry Crete, past president of the Catholic Psychological Association, the CEO and co-founder of Souls and Hearts, and a licensed marriage and family therapist with me for this episode. Dr. Gerry, you are back with us in the studio. It is very good to have you. For those of you that may be jumping in in this in the middle, Dr. Gerry Crete is joining us again for this second in the series on pornography. This is a sub-series on pornography that we’re doing in the broader section on sexuality that we’re doing here on Interior Integration for Catholics. We’ve covered, in the last episode, we covered all kinds of things about sort of understanding at depth what’s going on with pornography use. Now we are looking at, really going to focus in on, really going to laser in on how do we resolve it? How do we rise up from using pornography? And I just want to start with this thing that I think about sometimes because it can be really helpful. What would you say, Dr. Gerry, is like the guiding star? What is the sort of orienting principle that you would like us to like refer back to as we understand the rest of this?

Dr. Gerry: [00:03:17] Well, I think that a key that most people have trouble with is the being kind and compassionate to the part of ourselves that is acting out. And like we talked about before, there might be religious or moralizing or other parts of our system that want to shame or judge or eradicate this part. And that’s the natural, I think, reaction, right? There’s a part of me that’s looking at pornography. How do I kill him? How do I get rid of him?

Dr. Peter: [00:03:52] Makes sense, right. Because that part might be looking at that pornography-using part and saying, this is going to lead me to hell. Right? I’m in danger here. This is grave matter. Like it’s not just life and death, but it’s like spiritual eternity on the line. So those protectors, I mean, I get where they’re coming from.

Dr. Gerry: [00:04:12] Exactly, exactly. And so some attention to those protectors. If you’re doing therapy from a parts perspective, you are taking some time with them because those parts need to experience the self, right? The self is that, you know, your core that is inherently compassionate, inherently curious, and that that self has to engage with those protectors so that the protectors feel safe enough, that this is an important process, that being kind to this part is necessary. And maybe if they’re willing to know that, why don’t you just watch for a little bit and we’ll see what gets revealed. And so those parts that are on guard, right? Because like you said, your very soul is at stake here. If they watch how the self, assisted by a therapist, can love and have empathy for this part that’s acting out, that sees through that acting out on some level. We’ll talk about this in more detail, but gets in and under it and finds out where the unmet need is, where the hurt is. It’s almost always some kid, right? Some child. And then all of a sudden the self, through this process, is loving this child, is starting to meet that child’s real needs. All these protector parts go, oh my gosh.

Dr. Peter: [00:05:53] I had no idea that this could be like this, right? It’s a whole new way of understanding. Yeah. Because one of the things that Richard Schwartz, the originator of Internal Family Systems, says is that parts always have good intentions, right? They’re always trying to help. And so even these, just like you were talking about in the last session, the use of pornography is an attempt to try to meet a need. It’s not just about sinning, right? Or hating God or alienating the spouse or something like that. It’s about trying to get that attachment need met. But the way that the parts going about it is problematic. It’s morally problematic. It’s developmentally problematic. It’s psychologically problematic. It’s emotionally problematic. We’re going to give that part more options if we can get access, if the protectors give you the space.

Dr. Gerry: [00:06:43] Yeah. And I think that what can happen is that a person can be really confused, why me? I’m this good person. Maybe everybody, you know, my family, people at work, my community see me a certain way, right? They see me as an upstanding, say, father, dad, whatever. And yet, when nobody is looking, I go looking at this. Right. And so what does that mean? That means to, maybe some of the parts, I just look good.

Dr. Peter: [00:07:21] I’m a fraud.

Dr. Gerry: [00:07:22] I’m a fraud. I’m an imposter. Deep down, in truth, I’m really a perverted, horrible person destined for eternal punishment. And so that gets changed when you realize we’re not talking about a 35-year-old or 50-year-old adult who takes over, but it’s a kid. Maybe it’s a 15-year-old, a 12-year-old, an 8-year-old, who desperately needs something, right? And all of a sudden, when that shift happens and you realize, oh, that’s where this is coming from, because an 8-year-old is going to take a certain position, right, and not going to be able to understand complexities. But an 8-year-old can be hugged. An 8-year-old can be loved, an 8-year-old can play, an 8-year-old can be redirected too, to what’s good and healthy. And so all of a sudden, you get enough distance, right? Enough distance from this part to see it for who it is. Now you can start caring for that part. And what can happen, right, is that in an addiction, especially, let’s say a behavioral addiction, like pornography or something. Well, something happens where you just, it’s like you slide right into the behavior without a thought, right? It’s like a spell cast.

Dr. Peter: [00:08:56] Like reflexive, almost. Right. Like reflexive, impulsive. It’s almost like you shift into this different mode of operating. Like it’s almost like you’re in a separate, like, not like a trance state necessarily, but it may feel almost like a trance or like you’re in some alternative zone, right? And that’s another way to understand these parts. Some people don’t like the parts language. They don’t like having the idea that we’ve got these little parts, but they can appreciate these modes of operating. Right? And you’re not just that one part. You’re not just that one mode of operating. That’s a part or that’s a mode, but it’s not the whole of you.

Dr. Gerry: [00:09:33] So all of a sudden, if you’re able to get into that little space, right, to make room for, and you can be preemptive, like you can start to predict when I’m most likely to do this. Like maybe by looking at the pattern, maybe it happens every Friday night. Maybe it happens every single night when I get home from work. Maybe it happens in the mornings. Whenever it is, we start to predict so we can get a little bit ready for it. But sometimes it’s hard. But if we can make a little tiny space before that spell is cast or before that trance state occurs to be able to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, let me see that seventh grader. Right. And if you can get a visual somehow on him, somehow a sense of his presence and all of a sudden it’s like, okay, the seventh grader wants to do this because he’s hurting. Now, all of a sudden, it’s not in me. It’s over here. And I can look at him and I can say, buddy, you don’t need that right now, but it looks like you’re hurting. How can I help you? Or I’m going to help you, or I’m here with you. And then we can then bring some of our knowledge about our self-reflection and stuff like that to him. And all of a sudden, that is extremely empowering.

Dr. Peter: [00:11:03] Oh, man. What I love about this, Dr. Gerry, is that you are helping people understand how to love themselves, right? And there is nobody that can love myself in place of myself. Not even God can love me in place of me, right? If I refuse to love myself, God can’t make up for that, right? He can’t. Well, maybe I’m in theologically deep waters here, but he can love me as God. Right. And he can send people to love me, as, you know, as conduits of his love. But if I refuse to love me, if I refuse to love myself, I’m going to be in a world of hurt. It’s essential. And we have a command to love ourselves. As God says, you know, Christ says, our Lord says, love your neighbor as yourself, right? That means that we’re to love ourselves, right? To have these relationships and to care for the parts of ourselves that are the sinners, the lepers, the tax collectors, you know, the Pharisees, like the whole realm of that inside of us.

Dr. Gerry: [00:12:06] Right. And so there might be parts, though, that resist that because they believe that’s pride or selfishness or self-centeredness.

Dr. Peter: [00:12:19] Or self-indulgence, right? Yeah. Self-indulgence. Like, yeah, I could see somebody say, oh yeah, you want to baby this part that’s acting out, that’s doing these horrible things, you know, that’s watching pornographic movies. Yeah, you want to just like sort of just sit with them and love on them and stuff like that. How’s that going to change anything?

Dr. Gerry: [00:12:40] Yeah, exactly. And so, this isn’t self-indulgence, right? What we’re trying to do here isn’t to spoil our parts, so to speak, because in fact, what we realize is that there is a deep starvation, there’s a deep deficit that is there. And when we meet that part and we see that starvation, then it’s a natural good thing. Like what parent would give its child a scorpion when it asks for a piece of bread? Like you want to give it what him or her, what they need, right? And so it’s important to look at this as what one needs. And that the fact is you have permission to be that self-indulgent, if you will, because there is a problem. If there was no pornography addiction or whatever addiction or whatever behavior, if that wasn’t there, that’s a sign of a deficit, right? But instead, we want to say, not only am I not going to be self-indulgent, I’m like, you know, lustful and I am doing this bad behavior, so I’m doubly bad. No. That the symptom reveals the deficit. And therefore, if I have to say it this way, you have a right in a sense or permission to feed oneself good food.

Dr. Peter: [00:14:13] It’s sort of like being on an aircraft, right? I mean, you know, like what they say, you know, in the unlikely event of the cabin depressurizing, masks will fall. Put your own mask on first before attempting to help somebody else. Right. And that’s why, you know, there is a focus, you know, we do need to love ourselves in order to be able to love others. Love your neighbor as yourself. There’s a sense of that we have to be coming from a place of loving ourselves and accepting ourselves, because anything that we don’t accept in ourselves, anything we reject or condemn in ourselves, we’re going to reject or condemn that in other people too. We will not be able to tolerate it in other people. It’s a very fascinating thing to actually look at it that way. So that integration inside is so critical.

Dr. Gerry: [00:14:57] Yeah. And I mean, if a person needs any more motivation to love themselves, think about the fact that we were created in his image. Like that’s what he says. So when we are loving ourselves properly, we are in fact also loving God and honoring God and thanking God for the gift that he has given us in creating us, and that we are that precious to him. And we need to just own that. I mean, that is an awesome truth. It’s hard to accept sometimes, but it’s true. Like that is our true dignity, right?

Dr. Peter: [00:15:40] And that includes that includes our parts, right? Because these parts, when they’re freed from their burdens, they can go back to offering us beautiful things. Like I had parts, I had a part that was burdened with a real issue. And when that part was freed, I was able to play because that part like helps me to play. So it’s not just about overcoming the problem behavior, the sinful behavior. It’s about freeing us to be able to be fully human, fully alive.

Dr. Gerry: [00:16:09] Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. That’s beautiful. And so recognizing that whatever that fantasy was, was some kind of construction, that’s obviously temporary or initially temporary, way to answer needs to avoid pain. So now what we’re doing in loving oneself is we’re helping that part to start to not avoid pain by attending to the pain and caring for the person who’s holding the pain, and being able to love them in ways that they always needed. And so now that fantasy construct is no longer necessary. We can bring ourselves now to expressing intimacy in healthier ways that end up being way more meaningful, end up being positive. And that gets us into the whole idea of like, what is true intimacy? How can we experience that in healthy ways? So now all of a sudden, it’s not just, oh, I’m going to stop that behavior. I somehow have to like, make myself stop wanting that, that I really want. And it’s not a denial. It becomes like less, it’s not about denial. It’s actually about wanting and seeing something better. That’s a hard thing to get to because that those parts think that the behavior is their only way of getting their needs met. So that’s a big shift. And now it takes, I’m going to add that it takes some courage. And it seems like an interesting word. I like the word courage for lots of reasons. And within it I see the French, I’m sure, the Latin of cor, which means heart. But it takes a heart, right, to have your parts trust you, have your parts, the protector parts, take on new roles, and to allow this hurt part to be vulnerable enough to receive love and care. And then there’s even some grieving that has to happen because on some level, they’re being asked to let go of a safety blanket. Right?

Dr. Peter: [00:18:29] Right, right. At least a perceived good, right? At least something that they felt would save them or help them, something that they thought they needed. So there’s this, yeah, these parts gotta take a risk, right? Of trying something entirely different.

Dr. Gerry: [00:18:46] Yeah. The scene from Lord of the Rings, if anybody has watched those movies or read the book, the scene where Frodo is standing there at the end and he’s holding the ring in his hand, and he won’t. And he’s right there. He finally got to Mount Doom. All he has to do is throw that ring. And he doesn’t. He can’t. It’s very hard. So there is courage and a very difficult thing to actually let go of something, even though you know it’s not a good. You’ve come to the realization and all that, but yet it has a hold, right. Because it has provided something. And so it’s about letting go of that in order to embrace something new and better, which is a leap of faith.

Dr. Peter: [00:19:33] Yeah. It reminds me of the Indiana Jones movie, like where Indiana Jones has to step into the chasm and expect that the bridge is going to come across, you know? I think that’s the Temple of Doom. I think it’s the Temple of Doom where, yeah. But he’s gotta like lean into it first before he finds that it’s actually going to support him because it actually appears when he does it.

Dr. Gerry: [00:19:54] I think it’s The Last Crusade.

Dr. Peter: [00:19:56] The Last Crusade. You’re right, you’re right.

Dr. Gerry: [00:19:58] Sorry. That’s how nerdy I am.

Dr. Peter: [00:20:02] Well, I’m glad you’re here to bail me out on that one. Right. Because I would have got the comments, right. But yeah, I mean, I think that’s it. So like when somebody’s doing this, like you’ve got the means in, right? We’ve got the external stuff there, you know, Covenant Eyes, the apps and so forth, maybe in therapy, in the SA group perhaps, checking in with the accountability partner. And I’ve got the different pieces together. What can a person expect when they begin this road to recovery, once they’re like kind of on it and so forth? Do we just imagine that it’s just going to be like gone forever? Is that how it typically goes in your experience?

Dr. Gerry: [00:20:43] No, no. Usually it’s a journey and it’s a difficult one. I think there has to be, again, two parts here. We talked about holding two things at once. So there is a need. There will be a need for most to make some kind of reparations. Okay. So there is like owning it is what we’re talking about, taking responsibility. That might be with one’s spouse, with ourselves, recognizing how we’ve been harming ourselves all this time.

Dr. Peter: [00:21:12] There might be some grief about that, like just how we find ourselves.

Dr. Gerry: [00:21:16] Right? And God, even. So, there’s owning it and being willing to say, I’ll do whatever it takes. I am gonna just make whatever reparations, which might mean I take some hits, right? Because, hey, say, if it’s a marriage, if it’s their spouse, they’re going to have all their own stuff to work through. And so we have to be able to try anyway, to tolerate that, that they have a process that might not feel good for us. But as part of this, some of it, we’re just going to have to accept that it’s going to be difficult, and they have a right to their process. So there is that on one hand, the making reparations. That’s how I would put it. And then another side of it is embracing freedom, right? It’s very hard embracing growth and freedom. And that’s the journey. That takes some time. Right. And that’s about being authentic and that’s about being, as we’d say in Internal Family Systems, like being in self. Another way I would put it would be to being present. You talked about, I don’t know, some of the interesting saints and people like Saint Therese of Lisieux, or, I don’t think he was canonized, but Brother Lawrence, with the practice of the presence of God or what have you. There’s this whole almost like, I guess it’s captured by mindfulness as well, but there’s this whole idea of being present with oneself in the moment. And because we have a tendency to spend a lot of our present moment either holding on to shame and bad feelings and past things or fears about what’s coming. And we don’t spend a lot of time in the present in order to be able to attend to, first of all, our parts, whatever might be going on. So recovery, I would say, is about being in self, and it’s about being present. So there’s an honesty and there’s an authenticity to doing that. All right. Some of the benefits of doing this.

Dr. Peter: [00:23:38] Are they’re like little milestones that people will see? You know, like, as they, you know, like maybe that’s what you’re getting into with the benefits, but maybe some of those benefits are come sooner rather than later. You know, are there ways that people kind of know that they’re making progress?

Dr. Gerry: [00:23:54] Yeah. I think that it’s hard and it’s individual, right? Because people are going to have different experiences. It’s a little hard to generalize what that will look like for just about anybody. I will say that what drives an addiction sometimes and actions, is about kind of like being on a hamster wheel where I can’t, I have to keep going and do. Often there’s a lot of doing. And I can’t stop, but I don’t actually know where I’m going. I just think that if I stop, I’ll feel pain, which feels really different from, you know, maybe because we all have to do things. So it’s not like, you know, maybe we have jobs or families and things we have to take care of. But when we’re more present and all I’m talking about, being in self and all that, then all of a sudden we’re able to complete tasks and find that the deeper meaning in the everyday and deeper meaning and feeling like almost like you’re in a zone, if you will, and you can complete things and you get a sense of completion, not just a sense of, I’m a hamster on a hamster wheel and it never ends. Right. So there’s a slowing down internally. Even if you might outwardly look still like you’re busy and doing things, it’s a different state. It’s a different feeling when it comes to that. I think you’re also more able to relax and enjoy even the downtime. I think when someone is caught up in addiction, even their downtime is stressful.

Dr. Gerry: [00:25:41] Even their downtime is scattered and obsessively thinking about things that have gone behind or things you still have to do or, you know, and all this sort of like an inner insecurity that never ends. And that is so intolerable that then addiction, certain kinds of addictions, numb the person out, because I can’t be 24/7 worried. At some point, I’m overwhelmed. And that’s why some behavior or substance is going to numb you out, so I don’t feel anything. I don’t feel like I’m just on that hamster wheel all the time. It’s an escape. Okay, so being more itself means something that’s really hard for some people, right? If people have ADHD or whatnot, it can be really hard for some, more than others. But it means slowing down and enjoying the quiet, beautiful moments, right? It might be getting up in the morning and saying your morning prayers and soaking it in, right? Rather than I’m going to just say my prayer as fast as I can because it’s the next thing I have to do after I go get my coffee, after I get in the car, after I drive to work, I go, go, go, go, right. And it’s about slowing it all down, right? And enjoying, noticing things, noticing the beauty in nature, noticing the beauty, the creations around you, whether it’s pets, but especially like children, spouses, friends, like seeing them as people. It sounds so basic, right? But I think addiction steals that away.

Dr. Peter: [00:27:17] Yeah. Because it’s such an attention drawn inward because there’s so much tension. There’s so much unmet needs. There’s so much going on inside that it’s almost like our house is on fire. Right? So that’s going to attract our attention. It makes us very difficult to go visit anybody else’s house and see them where they are. Right.

Dr. Gerry: [00:27:38] Right. That’s such a good point. And if they have something they have to tell me, in an addictive sort of mindset, you’re defensive. Right. It’s like, because you’re already so self-protected. You’re either numbed right out or you’re just in a constant state of holding it together, that there’s no ability to tolerate somebody bringing their issue or bringing their concern or their questions. That’s like a threat. That’s an attack, right? And so what we’re really trying to cultivate here is a spirit where I’m open to feedback. If you have something. Yeah, I’m going to slow down, space. I’m in self, if you will. I’m present. And you say something. Now, I might or might not agree. I might actually have some counter concerns, but I am okay to hear them. I’m not threatened by feedback. In fact, I welcome it. And if it’s good feedback and it’s important, then hey, I will take that to heart. I will work on that. If it’s not, then I’ll be talking like, let’s talk it through. Help me understand. You know, there’s a whole receptivity, curiosity, patience, all these virtues, all these qualities, just become so much more available in recovery. It’s beautiful.

Dr. Peter: [00:29:08] So that could be happening even though there are some lapses or falls, right? You could start seeing that kind of alternating, right? Yeah. Because sometimes, I mean, generally, you know more about the research on this than I do, but generally the recovery isn’t always linear where it’s just like, you know.

Dr. Gerry: [00:29:30] Yeah. And that’s a great point. And what starts to happen as a person is moving in recovery is that they see those lapses or slips, even if it’s a full-blown relapse, but they see those as opportunities to learn and grow. And this might need, you might need a therapist or a really good sponsor or something to be able to help figure that out a little bit because it might be something very biological, right? It might be being sick. It might be, you know, recognizing some other issue. I was super tired or I was, you know, I didn’t eat all day or something. It can be, there’s the acronym for that. HALT. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. So it could be something like that. And so then it’s about recognizing where are my weak points? So when am I most vulnerable? And then it’s realizing, oh, what happened to that 12-year-old, that 12-year-old I’ve been working on, we’d spent all this time, even made a little inner play room for him. I’ve been taking care of him. I haven’t checked in on him in, like, a month. Who knows where that kid is, right? Right. Okay, why? And then you can start, you know, if you have a slip of some kind and you see it as an opportunity, you start to go, okay, what’s going on that that happened? Right. And so now, okay, so it’s another chance to learn something about the self, learn something about what our needs are, you know, so whether it’s an inner thing, I need to do some therapy work, whether it’s an environmental thing or both that I can do. So in the end of the day, you’re learning and growing and advancing, right? Rather than going, oh, I made a slip. You see, it’s true, I really am this piece of crap that this impostor, this, all that stuff. Yeah. Instead of going back and then all the shame, all that stuff comes right back. That’s what happens to a lot of people. So we’re working against that. We’re working toward a new way of treating our parts and our self, right?

Dr. Peter: [00:31:43] Because sometimes there’s protectors that, you know, maybe have like some perfectionistic streaks in them, may have, you know, some unrealistic expectations of performance, you know, or something like that, that need to be tempered a little bit by the care for them. Right. And an awareness that, okay, you know, there can be some, you know, missteps along the road. When a toddler is learning to walk, it’s not going to be perfect, you know? Yeah.

Dr. Gerry: [00:32:13] You just reminded me there. Well, or at least I thought of something there, which is another marker. And it is related to time. Because being present means you’re very present of, you’re aware of time, and you’re able to like even slow down with time, right? Value half an hour or an hour sitting with someone, and just, you know. We’re not trying to accomplish anything. I’m just going to be with you. We’re going to share. Or maybe it’s me, you know, like sitting by a river or something like this. Whatever it is, I’m aware of time. The addiction is the opposite of that. One sign of an addiction would be things like I started, you know, it doesn’t have to be pornography. Well, it can be, but it could be something like reading the news or being on social media, where I thought, oh, I have 20 minutes and I’m going to do this. And then you look at the time and it’s been two hours. So there’s a, I call it a black hole of time. Addiction just sort of sucks you into, which is a little different. There are times when we get in the zone, we’re working on some project, we’re firing on all cylinders, and we end up spending more time on something than we thought. But we never lose the sense of time.

Dr. Peter: [00:33:32] Right? Well, there’s some real research coming through, through the neuroimaging of where the temporal centers of the brain, the centers of the brain that access time, can be shut down, kind of go offline so that time isn’t accessible, that a sense of time is inaccessible. So again, we’re going back to how this is even mediated by the body, right?

Dr. Gerry: [00:33:54] So that’s fascinating. I love all that research that ends up supporting what we see in practice, that inform it. So yeah. I would say another thing that maybe is a key one is suddenly the things we do and our relationships take on new meaning, right? They’re not just a means to an end. They’re not an obstacle in the way, but they’re actually meaningful. Right? And sometimes that could cause a person in recovery to evaluate some relationships and activities and realize, yeah, these ones aren’t meaningful to me. And I don’t, I have to really look at why am I doing this? Or why am I hanging out with those people? But what one does find in recovery is that, wow, I can sit with the relationship and be with someone, maybe it’s being seen, maybe I’m seeing them, vice versa. And it’s powerful and important to me. Because you always hear that, right? That the trope or the stereotype of the person dying is like, yeah, like I’m dying. Dying person’s wish is not to have more time to do work, right? It’s always about relationship in the end. And so if we have a relationship with something artificial, like an image, you know, pornographic images or alcohol or drugs or whatever it is, if that’s our relationship, and we’re not in relationship with other people, or our relationship with other people are in the way of our other addictive relationship, we know we’re in trouble.

Dr. Peter: [00:35:34] Right. So then my wife becomes sort of somebody I have to avoid when I’m engaging in pornography or something like that. Right. She becomes a threat to this part that is trying to get needs met in some way through pornography.

Dr. Gerry: [00:35:51] Exactly, exactly.

Dr. Peter: [00:35:53] Oh, yeah. Totally.

Dr. Gerry: [00:35:54] Yeah, that’s exactly it. And the more, because there’s sort of like staging in addiction too. So there’s different, I would say, levels of it. And so if your world starts to revolve around how you can get access to, say, pornography at the expense of everything. Like your job’s in the way of that, your wife’s in the way of that, whatever, your kids even, then that’s a really clear sign of an addiction or one of the signs. And when you’re in recovery though, and all this stuff, we’re talking about being in self and being present, and all of a sudden the relationships, real relationships become more meaningful. Heavy stuff.

Dr. Peter: [00:36:40] Heavy, heavy stuff. So it goes back to that overarching principle of loving the entirety of yourself and all of your parts, care, compassion, concern, wanting to understand. That’s sort of like the guiding star, the principle there. And then getting some help from other people. Right. This is one of those things that we talked about in the section of masturbation, not going it alone, but rather kind of opening up your system to be able to connect with somebody else. Therapist, sponsor, certainly confessor, spiritual director maybe.

Dr. Gerry: [00:37:18] Really, really helps break the shame, when that shame barrier is so strong, to talk about it with other people and discover, wow, even if it’s my therapist, like they still see me and like me and know me and I’m still okay, right? You walk into a meeting and other people, they’re all struggling with the same thing. And guess what? I can like them. They can like me. We can be this. And suddenly this becomes something that doesn’t have to be crippling.

Dr. Peter: [00:37:50] Yeah. In fact, you know, I make the argument in the episodes on masturbation, that that the struggle can actually be a gift. The struggle with this, because it’s not just about unpacking the whole question around pornography use, but it’s actually, and sometimes this is why God just doesn’t heal it, you know, like that. But actually, he wants us to get to the relational wounds, right? The attachment injuries that you were talking about. So it’s not just the only problem. It’s not the only problem. It’s to help us work through these other things. That’s why God sometimes doesn’t just take it away. He wants us to struggle with this in order to be able to get to these deeper questions, these more fundamental issues that are holding us back from being able to be free to love him, to love our neighbor, to love ourselves. That’s what you’re kind of talking about. You know, so people can sometimes go a lot further in that loving because they struggled with an addiction of some kind than they ever would have been able to otherwise.

Dr. Gerry: [00:39:04] Absolutely. I do think that’s true. I think people that go through a recovery process, really embrace that, are so much more appreciative, so much more relational, so much more honest than the average Joe.

Dr. Peter: [00:39:22] So we could actually conceptualize these things within Romans 8:28, which, you know, is my favorite verse, right? “All things work together for good for those who love the Lord.” All things, including even these really painful experiences, including even, you know, our sins, right? God can make good come from them. It’s not that we treasure the sins because of their sinfulness or anything like that. We’re not saying that, but that great good can come from these things. So there’s hope in all of this. I mean, that’s one of the things I want people to take away from this is that yes, there’s hope.

Dr. Gerry: [00:39:59] Yeah. No, I believe that. I mean, I have a trauma history. I would say that without that, I wouldn’t be the therapist I am today. I’m thankful for that cross. And I can kiss that cross today, but not be nailed up on it.

Dr. Peter: [00:40:22] Right. You know, it is sometimes a hard road. It’s a hard road sometimes, this whole thing. And sometimes the crosses seem really heavy, you know? So if you are struggling with pornography use, if you’re struggling with some other sexual issue, just want to encourage you to stay with it, to not give up on this. You know, seek and ye shall find. Seek and ye shall find. So I’m gonna I’m gonna promote your course here in a minute again. But I just wondered if you had any other things, any things you wanted to leave, any final words that you wanted to?

Dr. Gerry: [00:41:01] Could we mention Hear the Word because I’m doing a lot of exercises there that is about, you know, resourcing. So it’s not therapy, but it’s a lot of stuff that would be very helpful for pre-therapy for some people.

Dr. Peter: [00:41:18] Well, tell us what Hear the Word is, because not everybody that listens to this podcast may know what Hear the Word is.

Dr. Gerry: [00:41:23] Well, it’s funny because Be with the Word is is a weekly podcast where we explore the Sunday readings and bring some kind of insight for the family or insight for personal growth. Hear the Word started out as just reading the Scriptures because some people wanted that. But since Advent of 2020, I have been infusing teachings on how to meditate and incorporating different treatment resourcing, which you typically find in EMDR, which is one of the trauma treatments I’m trained in, or other IFS or other therapies. But I’ve been using that knowledge to do guided meditations and link them in with the readings. So if you’re wanting something that would help you to learn to meditate better, to have someone walk you through a guided meditation, that would help, sometimes it just helps to strengthen these parts, check out Hear the Word. I think you’ll enjoy it.

Dr. Peter: [00:42:27] And they can find that at soulsandhearts.com, which is our main website. There’s links off of there. And then you’ve got this course. We mentioned it briefly last time. And you know, we have recently decided to actually try to make that more accessible. So we’re actually going to price that at $99. Originally it was $149. $99. And it’s a whole lot of modules. This goes into far more depth than we have been able to do in the last couple of episodes. I can’t remember how many hours that whole course is, but it’s substantial. And it covers it in a very organized, linear way, too.

Dr. Gerry: [00:43:05] You’re kind of getting not only pornography recovery kind of addiction work in there, you’re also getting sort of pre-marriage therapy prep to help, and you’re getting some real assistance and guidance in how to relate to one another as a couple with this issue, you know, being present and what each person in the marriage needs to do individually and what they need to do together to bring about greater levels of healing. So it’s if you’re like, say, maybe you’re seeing a marriage counselor, this would actually support and strengthen the marriage counseling effort. And if you’re working on overcoming an addiction or a compulsion or whatnot, or just a problem with pornography. This will help you with that as well.

Dr. Peter: [00:43:52] Yeah. So going to really encourage people to check that out. That course is called Be True. And it’s also on our website at soulsandhearts.com. So, well, it has been a pleasure to do these episodes with you, Dr. Gerry. I so appreciate you taking the time, connecting in here with the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast. It’s been a blessing to have you. We’re going to have you back, try to talk you into coming back. With that, let’s go ahead and wrap it by invoking our patroness and our patron. Our Lady, our Mother, Untier of Knots, pray for us. Saint John the Baptist, pray for us.