IIC 182: The Wonder of the Neglected Gift of Deification (with Parts!) with Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas

Deification: A secret in the Catholic Church that really shouldn’t be a secret.  Join Dr. Gerry Crete, Dr Matthew Tsakanikas, professor of theology at Christendom College, and Dr. Peter for a wide-ranging discussion of the glory, the adventure, the awe of partaking of God’s divine nature with the entirety of our being – our hearts, souls, minds, bodies, innermost selves, and all our parts, from a perspective informed by Internal Family Systems and grounded in a Catholic anthropology and metaphysics.  What does it really mean for all of you to be a beloved little son or beloved little daughter of God?

[00:00:00] Dr. Peter: Okay. I want to share with you a Catholic secret. A Catholic secret that’s not supposed to be a secret, and I’m gonna sum it up for you in one word. Here it is. Deification. Also known as divinization or theosis. Right. What does that mean? In short, deification, divinization, theosis, that means that you and I can become gods. Now, hear me out for a minute. Don’t just tune me out. Don’t just accuse me of being a heretic. This is very Catholic. We Catholics don’t become gods in our essence, you know, by our human natures. No. But we are invited to partake of God’s divine nature as St. Peter tells us in his second letter, chapter one, verse four. We can become gods if we embrace our new identities as beloved little sons and daughters of God through the incarnation of the Word, the second person of the Trinity, by his grace. This has a long, long tradition in our Catholic church, going all the way back. So let’s just start with Scripture, right? So many times, our Lord Jesus Christ held out to us the possibility of becoming sons of God or daughters of God or children of God.

[00:01:35] Dr. Peter: We see this in Matthew 5:9. “Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God.” Or John 1:12. “But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God.” We see this in Matthew 5:45. Luke 20:36, John 11:52. We see it in Romans 8:15. “For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship when we cry, _abba_, Father.” We see it in Romans 8:19. We see it in 2 Corinthians 6:18. “And I will be a father to you and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.” 1 John 3:2. “Beloved, now we are children of God.” Galatians 3:26. Galatians 4:5-7. That one’s really critical because not only do we receive adoption as sons of God or daughters of God, as believers as Christians, but we also become heirs of God. Ephesians 5:1. “Therefore be imitators of God as beloved children.” Philippians 2:15. I can multiply these. 1 John 3:10. Revelation 21:7. “He who conquers shall have this heritage and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” When you are a son or a daughter of someone, you share in that person’s nature, and we are invited to partake of God’s divine nature as St. Peter tells us in his second letter, chapter 1:4. And this we see in the early Church Fathers as well. Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, second century. He said, “He who was the son of God became the son of man that man might become the son of God.” Saint Athanasius in the fourth century. He said, “The Word of God is made man, that man may become God.” And that was in his work On the Incarnation chapter 54, paragraph 3. Saint Cyril of Alexandria in the fifth century. “He came down into our condition solely in order to lead us to his own divine state.” On the Unity of Christ. St. Thomas Aquinas said, “Since it was the will of God’s only begotten son that men should share in his divinity, he assumed our nature in order that by becoming man, he might make men gods.” Wow. Wow. The Orthodox scholar, Olivia Clements, writes, “The purpose of the incarnation is to establish full communion between God and humanity, so that in Christ humanity may find adoption and immortality, often called deification by the Fathers, not by emptying out our human natures, but by fulfilling it in the divine life since only in God is human nature truly itself.

[00:04:54] Dr. Peter: And we have this concept of deification in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 398. “In that sin, man preferred himself to God, and by that very act, scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status, and therefore against his own good. Constituted in the state of holiness, man was destined to be fully divinized by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to be like God, but without God, before God, and not in accordance with God.” And famous Catholic moral theologian, Germain Grisez, once wrote, “The idea of our divinization is so astonishing and so different from anything we ordinarily think that we tend to cast about for ways to weaken its force by giving it an attenuated meaning that empties Christianity itself of meaning.” This is mind-blowing stuff, this idea that we can share in God’s nature that we are really and truly his beloved little sons and daughters. Jonathan Liedl in his July 16th, 2025 National Catholic Register article titled, You Are Gods: The Ancient Theology That’s Making a Comeback and Could Help Unite East and West. He wrote, “Although never lost, the theology of deification had long been overshadowed by more juridical approaches to salvation, which emphasize concepts like expiation of guilt and deliverance from punishment.”

[00:06:37] Dr. Peter: What’s exciting about today, what’s exciting about this episode is that we are taking this concept of deification, divinization, theosis. We’re taking it up, but with parts, with our parts as well, with the entirety of our being, with every fiber of our being, and all parts are invited to this. All parts are invited to the party. All parts are called to share in the glory of becoming God along with your innermost self. We’re gonna get into that now, so let’s not hesitate a second more. Let’s do this. So I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, also known as Dr. Peter. I am your host and guide in this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast. I’m so glad to be with you. I am a clinical psychologist, a trauma therapist, a podcaster, a writer, the co-founder and president of Souls and Hearts. But most of all, most of all, I’m a beloved little son of God, a passionate Catholic who wants to help you taste and see the height and depth and breadth and warmth and the light of the love of God, especially God, your father, but also Mary your mother, your spiritual parents, your primary parents. I’m here to help you embrace your identity as a beloved little son or a beloved little daughter of God and Mary. I am here to help you embrace partaking in God’s divine nature. I’m here to help you hold on to this idea, this goal, this awesome experience of becoming divinized. And all of last year, in 2025, and much of this year, we are doing a deep dive into Internal Family Systems, into IFS, into parts work and Catholicism. Why? We’re bringing in the insights from IFS developed by Dr. Richard Schwartz and other parts and systems models, and we are harmonizing them with the truths of the Catholic faith. And why do we do this? Well, it’s all about living out the two great commandments. And those two great commandments have three loves in them: to love God, to love your neighbor, and to love yourself. That’s what this is all about. This is episode 182 of the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast. It releases on May 4th, 2026, and it’s titled The Wonder of the Neglected Gift of Deification — with Parts. And in our virtual studio with us, we have, again, Dr. Gerry Crete. He is back with me hosting this episode with me. He is a licensed marriage and family therapist in Atlanta, Georgia. He’s the founder and owner of Transfiguration Counseling. He’s the author of the book, Litanies of the Heart, published by Sophia Press, which is to this date, the first and only Catholic book that focuses on Internal Family Systems. He’s a leading Catholic thinker and synthesizer in this whole area of Catholic parts work, and he co-founded Souls and Hearts with me in 2019, going strong for seven years now. He’s been on the podcast many times before and I know he’s working on a new book. I can’t give you any hints about that, but I’m excited about that. And so with all of that, dear Gerry, it is so good to have you back to be hosting this episode. Good to see you.

[00:10:16] Dr. Gerry: Hey, it’s always great to see you. 

[00:10:19] Dr. Peter: And as a guest on the podcast for the very first time, I am so excited to have Dr. Matthew A. Tsakanikas. Dr. Tsakanikas has a licentiate and he has a doctorate in sacred theology from the Pontifical Lateran University in Rome. He is a professor of theology at Christendom College. And here’s a little fun fact. My daughter Marie is taking a course from him right now in this semester. Dr.  Tsakanikas’s book, A Catechesis on Deification, Transfiguration and the Luminous Mysteries. It’s brief, it’s highly recommended by top scholars, and it’s excellent for both the laity and academics. Dr.  Tsakanikas has had his work published in a variety of different Catholic outlets, including Communio, the International Catholic Review, Logos: A Journal of Catholic Thought and Culture, the Homiletic and Pastoral Review, the Social Justice Review, and Catholic World Report. And with all of that introduction, I am so excited to have you on the podcast for your debut with Interior Integration for Catholics, Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas. So welcome.

[00:11:38] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: It’s my pleasure and honor. 

[00:11:40] Dr. Gerry: Well, I’m excited to be with you today, Dr. Tsakanikas, and to talk about this important, you know, topic of theosis, which people don’t really understand well, I think. Most Catholics don’t even know, you know, what that is. They might not even know divinization or deification or any of these terms. So maybe we just start, if you wouldn’t mind just telling us a little bit from your perspective what it is and maybe, I’m curious if you have any thoughts on why it is so unknown. 

[00:12:11] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: We’ll come back to why it’s so unknown. In terms of theosis, which in the Latin, would be more stated as deification, which also is often referred to as divinization, which should not be confused with divination, which is why I prefer deification. So dei-, of God, -fica, coming from facere. So, to be made God by grace. You were using the more Eastern term of theosis and in the East they would certainly say that huiopoesis, being made a son or being composed a son, in other words, entering the sonship of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, that  huiopoesis is theopoesis, being made a son is being made God by grace, would be the short form of saying it. So the emphasis is by becoming a partaker of the divine nature, 2 Peter 1:4. That to be a partaker of the divine nature happens through grace by which we become a new creation, and that new creation is entering into that covenantal relationship in which we’re made sons in the Son. And so this aspect of deification is how through grace we’re elevated into a new relationship, the relationship for which God created us in the first place, which was to become family of God and to be born of God. Well, I’ll stop there and if you want me to say more, I’m happy. 

[00:13:56] Dr. Peter: So that was the plan, even from beginning of creation, Adam and Eve, you know, that they were to eventually be able to partake in the divine nature, but they didn’t in that prelapsarian state before the fall. Is that right? 

[00:14:13] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: What we would say for sure, in other words, they were sharing in grace. And the Western tradition would certainly approach what that would mean overall in a system of grace. But they sinned and so they broke the covenant of creation by which they were to continue to enter into the sonship. Most importantly, I would always suggest to Catholics, I think some of the most important reading that can be done in order to understand the mystery is Ephesians chapter one.

[00:14:44] Dr. Peter: Okay.

[00:14:45] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: And in Ephesians chapter one, it says very clearly that God created us in view of Christ, that he predestined us in Christ, “before the foundation of the world.” So in other words, the whole plan was always to bring us and make us sons in the Son. And so we have to be created in order for us then to be developed, to be taken from the natural order into the supernatural. So the natural is the foundation in which the supernatural works. So we always had a supernatural destiny because there was always a plan in Christ, and this was always a grace coming from God. 

[00:15:35] Dr. Gerry: I’ve heard it said that, you know, this theosis or deification was really the fullness of our humanity. In other words, it’s the fullness of what we were meant to be as humans. I don’t know if you agree with that or that makes sense. 

[00:15:49] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think in the early patristic tradition, when we talk about being made in the image of God, yes, having intellect and will means to be made in the image of God. But we’re always made in the image of the Son who is God. And we’re always made in the image of the one who in the fullness of time came, the one who Ephesians, it’s particularly Ephesians chapter one, verses three and four, that we were made in view of Christ before the foundation of the world. It was a plan in Christ before God even decided. In other words, no human was made apart from God always knowing we would be realized in Jesus Christ. That’s Ephesians. It’s also very clear in Colossians.

[00:16:31] Dr. Gerry: I love it. Now, one thing I really liked what you said there about being sons by grace and all that, because in Internal Family Systems there’s this notion of the self, right? And Dick Schwartz, who developed it, talks about the self. He capitalizes the word, S in self. And he even got to a point in his writings, in his later writings, where he really describes the self as basically divine. I mean, he might not say divine, but it’s undamaged and it belongs to this greater self. He’s not saying God, but he might as well be. And so he ends up basically having the self be this undamaged perfect little bit of divinity. And I took great exception to that. It was one of the reasons I wrote this book that I did, just so that I could make the clarification that that wouldn’t be the Catholic view. I always thought he sort of stumbled upon the image of God within. He was surprised when he was working with people and he was doing this unblending and unburdening process and he was discovering this self that was compassionate and kind and calm and all these virtues, regardless of the person’s background or history or anything. And he found it in everyone. But I’ve made the point that we are still in need of redemption. And in fact, the idea that you were saying like we were made sons by grace, means we need grace in order to have that full redemption, that we’re not a hundred percent undamaged, at least not post fall. Anyway, just wondering if you had thoughts about that. I think it just gets into this whole question of what is the self and how does it relate to the image of God or imago dei? 

[00:18:16] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Yeah, so I would say since we were always made in view of Christ, then the plan was always that the image of God within us is not something static. The image of God within us is something dynamic. So we make distinctions. We’ll say there’s the capax dei, the capacity for God, but it’s not a capacity that demands that God absolutely has to fill it. But God only gave us that capax dei, that capacity for God, in view of the fact that we were predestined in Christ before the foundation of the world. And so this capax dei itself is a grace from God that we should even be made in such a way that this image is in a sense of potentiality. It is meant to be realized through the knowledge of Jesus Christ, but not an abstract knowledge. I would say it’s through the knowledge that we’re loved, that God did not make us in a manner which he never had a plan. The plan was always a plan in Christ. That’s why I encourage every person to read Ephesians chapter one verses one through 10, particularly verses one through 10. It is the plan to restore all things in Christ. And this is actually the Greek word to restore all things in Christ, is anakephalaiosis. And this really means to re-head up. In other words, Christ was gonna bring all things that we can’t complete by our own power, that he was gonna bring them in himself because he’s the only one through whom these things can be received. He’s the source for all humanity. He’s called, in a sense, the true Adam. The first Adam was just the necessary beginning of the natural order, which is made to be a receiver of the supernatural through knowledge and love. And that’s why St. Paul calls Jesus in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, the last Adam, that he was the one who would anakephalaiosis, from the Ephesians 1:10, he would be the one who would restore all things. He would be the one who would anakephal, kephal, re-head up, to recapitulate all things. And so it’s Christ who reintegrates us. And it’s his love and his grace inside of us that makes possible the healing that we can’t accomplish on our own. 

[00:20:35] Dr. Gerry: Wow, I really love that. ‘Cause we’re looking at human formation and we’re doing this work even as therapists, you know, if we’re using parts work in our therapy, we’re trying to help bring all the interior parts of the person into a harmony. We’re trying to bring them, in a sense, have an unburdening experience, and really, you know, grow in virtue and so on. It’s a very natural level, right? And so we’re always looking at, well, where does that intersect with grace? Right? Like, theosis sounds like a very high spiritual thing to like, happen to a person, you know, sort of being glorified, kind of thing. Whereas we’re also talking about that inner integration on that sort of a ground level. So I’m just curious about where you see those things intersecting, coming together. 

[00:21:22] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Yeah. Well, I love that you said that. So, in a sense, when you use the word integration, it means perhaps something’s maybe a little bit fragmented, and so this is what happened to us at the Fall. Human nature itself was integrated because the lower powers were synergetically working integrated-wise with the higher powers and the higher powers were causing this ’cause the higher powers were in union with God. So after sin, that natural order is fragmented. So everything that’s natural to us at a bodily level, an emotional level, a nous or intellectual knowledge level. They’re all seeking their own. They’re in a sense, no longer working in an integrated fashion ’cause God is not the end. They’re all seeking their own. And so this is where knowledge of God begins to reunite the fragments in the truth that we are loved. And that there is a meaning and a destiny for us of the embrace of the Father who gives us the Son to recapitulate, to not just recapitulate the whole human race, but to re-head up every human, to reintegrate them in their bodily, sensual, emotional, and intelligent desiring so that all desire find its unification in that desire for God, who is the all good, the all beautiful, who shows us his love in the Son. 

[00:22:50] Dr. Gerry: Hmm. I love that. I’m gonna look forward to the transcript. You’re giving us so much richness. Thank you so much. 

[00:22:58] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Both of you, I’ve heard you probably say similar things. 

[00:23:03] Dr. Gerry: Well, I’d like to talk a little bit about love, ’cause this is such an interesting thing. I know we can say love is, you know, desiring the good for someone and everything. But you’ve mentioned it a few times that love is the, you know, the catalyst, I guess, if you will, for this integration. And don’t know, I’d just like to talk about that a little bit and your understanding of that.

[00:23:26] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Oh, sure. I had fun with this this morning. I was having to talk about God as the good, we’re going through the De Deo Uno, the attributes, ’cause we’re doing a study of the De Deo Trino, and so we’re discussing the good. And so there’s this aspect of, I think we need to be able to talk about eros when we talk about love. And so you find this in Dionysius, who’s also oftentimes called Pseudo-Dionysius, who is the basis for the work that you see in the Eastern Fathers. And you even see in St. Thomas Aquinas, that he’s trying to integrate this thought of eros. And so it’s this aspect of the good, you know, what is the good? Well, the good is according to Aristotle, that which all men desire. But the good itself is always eliciting our desiring. And so the good is always moving us towards, if I have a desire, that means there’s something in me that’s not complete, ’cause I would want something I don’t have or I want something I begin to need. And so eros itself is trying to move us to the perfection of ourselves. So eros is inseparably trying to tell us, you will be realized if you possess this good that’s calling to you, that’s creating a yearning inside of you. And so God has set in motion all of this creation, and all of these natures and all of these natures are working at a bodily, sensual, emotional, and intellectual level insofar as they share in those aspects of a nature. Love itself needs to be matured according to each nature and what’s highest in each nature. And so for we humans, there’s this aspect of our bodily loves, our bodily desires, our emotional desires and needs, in order for them to be integrated, we have to come to a knowledge of the truth, or they won’t find integration. But not a cold, hard truth because as Edith Stein teaches us, love is not love without truth, but truth is not truth without love. And so there’s this connection of, John Paul II’s connecting that aspect of eros has to be brought into ethos when it’s humans. ‘Cause as humans, truth is so necessary for that proper perfection of what we’re really seeking when we’re seeking a good. That’s why we’re haunted when it’s not in accord with the good and the true. Even if we get what we desire, we begin to recognize, there’s something higher than us telling us that you didn’t get it quite right. 

[00:26:06] Dr. Peter: Yeah, I think so much is revealed in Genesis, and I’m thinking about Genesis three, where Satan tempts Adam and Eve, you shall become like gods. You know, and I’m thinking about like going on within their systems. And of course, the consequences were this fragmentation, right? And the loss of the immediacy, the unity, the union with God, but also the internal unity. And so you can see it writ large in Genesis three, that breakdown that you were discussing, that fragmentation, it’s what you call original trauma, Gerry, you know, the idea of that fragmenting effect of trauma, which we see as clinicians all the time, it’s talked about quite a bit. So yeah, this idea that we need to heal from that, and that when we come into contact with the reality and the grace of becoming sons and daughters of God, that’s an ontological shift. That’s not some sort of accidental thing. There’s a fundamental change in the essence of our being. Am I getting that right? 

[00:27:13] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Well, there’s technical theological language, but certainly I understand what you’re after on that. So we would certainly say that there’s an ontological change by which God enters into a new indwelling in our essence when he elevates us, and so we start partaking in something higher. If we start using the word accidental, we would certainly say it’s a qualitative change. But it’s such, it’s even though it’s qualitative, because we can’t, anyway, we’d go into a real technical language. Let me know if you want me to go there. 

[00:27:43] Dr. Peter: No, that’s okay. I mean, just, it’s a change in our essence, like it’s a radically different way of being. 

[00:27:48] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Yes, It’s a new being inside of us from which we live, from which we act. And it’s interesting what you brought up though too. You brought up that very temptation, which is the devil hits something for some reason by saying you can become God. But notice it was for yourself. And that’s not the truth. And that’s not the way to become God by grace. It’s only through and by God. And so it’s very interesting though. What did Adam and Eve seek? They seek their own perfection. Notice how love makes you, and we have a natural drive towards perfection, but we have to realize there’s a way of truthfulness of obtaining our perfection because the real truth is God is love. And only when we enter into loving how God loves can we take possession of God. God’s not someone we can take and possess. God is someone we must receive. It’s a receiving, not a taking.

[00:28:52] Dr. Peter: Right. 

[00:28:53] Dr. Gerry: I love that. You know, I have a little quote from Benedict, who said, “Love is the only power that can truly integrate the person,” which I love. And then I think about, okay, what are they often saying in IFS or parts work terms? And in IFS, they have this like concept called self-energy. And I’ve always sort of wondered, okay, what exactly is meant by that? You know, and is that love, is that grace? Is that something else in the human spirit? So I’m just curious, like, how do we receive then, you know, that love, in a practical way in our everyday life? 

[00:29:27] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: How do we receive that love from God? 

[00:29:29] Dr. Gerry: Yeah, that would do that integration, that would help us with that integration. And I mean, I have ideas, but I’m just throwing it out.

[00:29:36] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: We receive that love first and foremost by believing in Jesus’ love for us. I see too often people have this idea of, what must I do? Now listen to that. In John chapter six, they ask him, what must we do to be doing the works of God? And he says, believe in him whom God has sent. What does it mean to believe in him? It means to believe that God so loved the world, and not just the world, but as St. Paul says, if there was always a plan in Christ for me to be realized, then God has always been giving himself. He’s always been giving me existence, relating me to himself, holding me in existence, and therefore caressing with love that I should even exist rather than not exist. And now he wants to take me beyond natural existence into the supernatural. So God is always giving. And when we look at Jesus, we have to see he is the gift of God, that He is revealing that God so loved the world, he gave his only Son, and that Jesus didn’t have to die. He chose to enter into death to die with us, to be with us in death, and to recapitulate our death. So what we must do to receive the love is first believe in God’s love for us. And in accepting that love, love moves us to love. And in loving, we’re holding onto that love. We take possession of that love. And so it’s first in accepting that we are loved by God when we behold the face of Jesus, who loved us unto death, not because it was a rule that he had to die. But in order to recreate us from the very interiority of ourselves, well, he entered into being a baby like us, a baby in the womb, a baby born, a youth, a teen, an adult, but part of human life is dying. And so he chose to enter into our dying to renew us. And when he began to realize he really died for you, these are the words of St. Paul. “I believe in Jesus who loved me and died for me.” Galatians 2. That now becomes a new life within you, which is why Jesus said, “The first work that you must do is believe in him whom God has sent.” To believe you are loved. 

[00:32:12] Dr. Gerry: That’s fascinating. I love that. I was thinking you were gonna say the sacraments.

[00:32:17] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Alright, well, that’s certainly tied to it because he gives us, holds us in existence, he gives us his own life, and then he gives us himself to feed us. So you see the ongoing giving. And if you’re always receiving a gift, this thankfulness is only responded by now you becoming a gift to God. But the only way to become a gift to God is by becoming a gift to your neighbor. And so in now, loving yourself, you see, to love myself rightly means to live from God’s word who loves others. And so now I can properly perfect myself by loving as God loves. He even loves people who don’t love me. And now I’m moved outside of myself to the recognition there’s more to life than just me. And now I enter into wisdom. 

[00:33:03] Dr. Peter: And that’s the reason why I got so interested in parts work, because it helped to explain why part of me is drawn to, you know, to receiving God’s love. But parts of me weren’t. You know, and how do we understand that, that conflict inside, you know, especially with the parts of us that struggle with shame, with feeling unlovable or inadequate. I’m fond of saying that any part that’s not in right relationship with the innermost self carries some kind of material heresy, you know, like parts of me that, you know, struggle with being inadequate, you know, have this huge push to try to earn the love of God, you know, in a very sort of Pelagian way, trying to make myself worthy of that. And so I think that when you sit down with and kind of begin to understand at the level of different parts of people where the conflicts around this come in, because it seems like people’s parts are often very fragmented, very divided in very different places with regard to their felt experience of God, their assumptions about God. These are often very intuitive. They’re derived experientially from the contact with authority figures and generalized to God in one’s life. And so, as a clinician, you can often find that, yeah, there’s these internal battles about that. And it seems like so often, when we discuss these things, there’s an assumption that we have a single, kind of homogenous, unified personality or identity. But it just doesn’t seem to square up with what I see in my own system, in my own life, and with the folks that I am able to accompany in various ways. So I’m just kind of curious if that resonates with you. Does it make sense that parts of us might have different degrees of contact, awareness, investment, belief in, this idea that we are beloved, beloved little sons and daughters of God? 

[00:35:00] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Yeah, this is where even those aspects of the part of us that feel shame. And so I think, I’m talking to the psychologist, but I think the shame comes from, we look at a certain rule or law and we recognize the law is true and we recognize we violated it. And we’re ashamed that why would I do this? And the hurt I’ve caused myself, the hurt I’ve caused others. But even so, I do believe in God’s love. And so I’m very confused. And this is where we need to move from rules that we certainly hold, which are truths, and rules, to recognize something else you said a little earlier, and that is, God loves us first. We do not earn that love. In other words, Christ died for us while we hated him and rejected him, while the world hated him and didn’t even want him. His own people, leadership of his people rejected him. And so yet, God loves us before we love him, and that’s where we need to start trusting in Jesus more. We have to believe in that rule. And the rule is Jesus loves you in your shame and in your brokenness and in your sin. He loves you and you don’t have to earn it. And that’s what I love teaching students about what the meaning of the new law is. Because when we hear the word law, we think of rule, a cold, hard rule. But I quote them and I say, well, what liberal said this one? Because this is actually what the new law is. And the new law is the grace of the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts, received through faith, and working in charity. It’s only secondarily a written law. People are like, wait a second. The law is the Holy Spirit being poured into your heart? How’s that a law? It’s the law of Jesus that he loves you before you love him, and if you will begin to accept that love and believe in it because it’s the truth, then he’s the one who heals our shame, because we’re all in that shame. We’re all in that sin. All of our bodily desiring has led us into sin. All of our emotional desiring when it doesn’t have God as its end, incorporated and integrated into that, leads us into sin. All of our intellectual desiring leads us into shame and sin. So we’re just a bundle of shame. And the good news is, start believing in his love. And not only will you receive this forgiveness and healing, but you’ll begin the path of integration, which is a lifelong process. But you can’t stay on that path without always believing he loves you before you love him, and he knows you’re gonna fall and he already knows about all your shame. And if he would touch lepers, stinky, disgusting, rotting flesh, he’s not afraid to enter that soul of shame. 

[00:38:02] Dr. Gerry: I love it. Thank you. I think that, I do a lot of, you know, counseling with mostly Catholics. So often this idea that you have to earn that love, even if intellectually on some level they know that’s not true, they just, in their heart of hearts, they don’t believe it. So what you’re really getting at is that core gospel, that he loved us first and that if all of our sin was combined into one, as St. Catherine of Sienna said, it would be one little drop in the ocean of God’s mercy. Right? Like, his mercy is so amazing. So I love it that you’re highlighting that. Thank you. 

[00:38:38] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Well, you’re talking my favorite, St. Catherine of Sienna, so I’m right there with you, and I forgot to mention that liberal who said, “The new law is the grace of the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts received through faith and working in charity.” That liberal was St. Thomas Aquinas, in the questions 106 to 108 of the first part of the second part. That is Thomas Aquinas summarizing the teaching of Augustine summarizing St. Paul’s letters. So that is the Catholic position. So when we’re stuck and I’ve gotta earn it and I’m just not good enough, great. You’re not good enough. But the good news is the new law is that he loves you first and you don’t earn it. So yeah.

[00:39:22] Dr. Peter: Well, this little passage of your book, I’m gonna read it verbatim ’cause there’s so much in here to unpack and it says, this is in chapter one. It says, “By his human obedience and giving of his human will to the divine will completely, Jesus became the source for all humans to become God by grace. The process of becoming love is enabled by faith in Christ who gives us Holy Spirit to restore our integration, healing us, and elevate us into a participation in God’s transcendent and eternal power, an eternal and transcendent power which can increase within us without end.” So there’s so much in here, that by entering into this loving relationship, you know, it’s not so much about rules. It’s not so much about earning, you know, approval. It’s about entering into that intimacy and relationship, that we actually can become God by grace, and that we can become love because God is love as St. John tells us, and that the Holy Spirit restores our integration. This whole podcast is called Interior Integration for Catholics. And we often talk about this, you know, in the natural realm, like what helps us to integrate in the natural realm, but ultimately it’s the Holy Spirit that completes that integration, bringing all parts of us, all of us into relationship with him. I’m reminded of the first great commandment, right? To love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, the whole mind, all your strength. Like it’s all of us, not just the parts of us that manage the spiritual affairs, you know, our spiritual managers, right? But all of us. It’s to extend throughout every fiber of our being. And you really capture it in there. Because this idea of becoming love, I’m reminded of St. Therese of Lisieux, you know, who said, I shall become love. Like that was her, I argue that’s her vision statement, right? Like that’s what she was aspiring to, is to becoming a perfect embodiment of love, and in that, reflecting the image of likeness of God within her. 

[00:41:30] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: So I think as Catholics, we’re always like, I have to do the will of God. I have to do what God wills. And that’s this rule, or this kind of rules and stuff. And rules, yeah, rules are good, don’t get me wrong, but I think we have to recognize what God’s will is for us. When I have to do the will of God, but what’s God’s will for you? And God’s will is that you be developed, that you flourish at a bodily, at an emotional, at a spiritual, intellectual level, that you flourish, that is God’s will for you. God loves you first, and you should love yourself as God loves you, so that you can love your neighbor as yourself. But the question becomes, what does it mean to become love? And you began by opening up with the obedience of Jesus to the Father. Well, now of course, Jesus has three kinds of knowledge in his human nature. He has the beatific, he has the infused, he has the experiential. So we’re talking about the human will and the experiential kind of knowledges in which you’re hit by things and you have to bring the will back into a surrender to God’s will. So Jesus is always bringing that human will by experiences deeper into the surrender of the human will, even more deeply to the mystery of the divine will. And so this, of course, is the mystery of Hebrews 10. And what I wanted to say on this is, well, how do we become love? And that’s where we have to recognize God loves us totally. And if we’ll let him love us and accept his love, we’ll find we stop saying no to him at the bodily level, no to him at the emotional level, no to him at the in intellectual level. And we’ll start saying yes to him, but it’s not an immediate process. And my point is this. When we pray, we look at a crucifix and we say, our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. And if anyone’s honest, you look at Jesus on that cross and you say, thy will be done. And you think, unless it means that. Right. And so this is where in our own lives, God begins to reveal to us, alright, it’s okay you don’t fully mean it. I know you want to mean it, but the more we try to mean it and accept his love, the more he’ll help us let go of where bodily, where will is self-seeking in a manner that’s not healthy. Our will is emotionally seeking in a way that’s not. And it’ll begin to reintegrate those things to a proper yes, to how we should direct bodily desiring, to how we should direct emotional desiring, to how we should direct it. But it’s a gradual process of the cross is the sign of his love and a reminder to us that we’re still living in a bit of a no and we have to like ask the Holy Spirit to help us mean yes, that thy will be done and to not feel threatened anymore, ’cause we see him loving us and we know his will is not the suppression of our bodily desires, the suppression of, meaning outright suppression, but rather integration. Your desiring is misdirected. It needs to be directed rightly onto its proper, truthful object. And so this is where the healing begins. God loves us first and now the Eucharist, as Gerry was saying, I thought you were gonna talk about the sacraments. Yes! It is there where he is teaching us to say yes to the crucifixion when we’re shown the separated body and blood. We’re saying yes to being offered through him, with him, and in him. But Jesus knows we can’t do this without him. So after the great Amen, he comes to us and communicates the help to overcome the sin, the venial sin within us. We have to remember that we don’t have to be perfect to receive Holy communion. Holy communion is for the imperfect. Certainly if you’re aware of having outright violated the 10 Commandments in a grave manner. But all of us are in venial sin. That’s why we go to communion, to get help to overcome it ’cause we can’t do it on our own. And if you’re not going to holy communion, how are you gonna overcome it? 

[00:45:43] Dr. Peter: Yeah.

[00:45:45] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: He wants you to receive him in venial sin so he can help you overcome it. 

[00:45:50] Dr. Gerry: Well, thank you. I love that. And just to pick up there with the sacraments and the Eucharist and so on, in terms of doing parts work, we talk about trailheads, which is like what do we use to like go inside? And for me, usually it’s something in the body. The most common thing I’m using is, where do you feel tension in your body? Where do you feel stress in your body? And then from there to look inward to see, well, what part is holding that tension? What part is holding that stress? And so I’m thinking to myself like the sacraments, especially the Eucharist in particular, is so embodying, like it’s so related to the physical body, you know, and it connects this notion that we’re fully integrated, body and soul and all. So I guess I’m curious of just thoughts on theosis, if you will, or divinization and the body itself and how you see that. 

[00:46:41] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Yeah, well, certainly the soul is intrinsically giving us the spiritual faculties, but without the soul, the spiritual soul, the bodily life wouldn’t continue. And so there’s this intimate union between body and soul. And so it’s not only that the soul is being deified, meaning again, when we speak about deification, we’re referring to the patristic way of speaking about our developmental sanctification. A seamlessness in Aquinas that moves from nature to grace, in this seamlessness, in this ongoing renewal and increase, qualitatively increase, in grace, which means the body itself, because the soul permeates the bodily life and communicates life to the body, the body itself is experiencing grace. The body itself. That’s why we venerate the relics of the saints. The body itself is holy because it’s being infused and flooded in baptism, in its renewal, baptism’s renewal through holy communion. The body itself is partaking in the mystery that the soul is partaking in. And so while this body will still die, this body itself is experiencing sanctification. It’s experiencing, you know, psyche, you know, psychology, the study of the soul, it’s experiencing the soul communicating what it’s possessing from Christ’s divinity. The body still will die, but we’re going to receive back a body that is gonna be in a soul that’s in beatific vision, and it’s gonna be a body that doesn’t experience disorder because it’s only known grace in its reunion with the soul in the beatific vision. And so that body’s bodily desiring and emotional desiring is going to be instantaneously integrated in the beatific vision. And I think by receiving the Eucharist, which is physical, and so in the sacramental sign, we know that we’re receiving not just the body and blood, but this is the mystery of Jesus who’s in heaven. And in heaven, that body and blood is in his soul and divinity. And so what I’m really saying by wanting holy communion is I want Jesus in me. And since it’s food, I want to live from Jesus in me because of myself, I cannot save myself. And so I want to start living from he who loves me more than I love myself, ’cause he was willing to die for me. And I’m barely willing to die to myself. And so by receiving holy communion, I’m saying I want more of your life into me ’cause only you heal me. And only you loved me enough that I want to live more from you. And so it’s by this physical action of taking the physical matters. It’s showing more and it’s actually increasing our desire for what is spiritual.

[00:49:59] Dr. Gerry: I love it, you know, what you’re saying is profound and foundational at the same time. And so it makes me reflect on the fact how bad my catechesis was when I was like in middle school and high school, and how it would’ve been so helpful to have, like have had you or you know, had this explained. And I mean, it’s a lot to take in, it’s a lot to absorb, but at the same time, it feels to me like the foundation of everything else. If you don’t get that, you know, what are we doing? You know, we’re missing out on everything. So thank you. Thank you so much.

[00:50:34] Dr. Peter: So there was this part of your book that I just want to share with our audience. This is again, in the first chapter, early in the book, where you write, “Writing jointly with Russell Shaw, the moral theologian, Germain Grisez once wrote, ‘The idea of our divinization is so astonishing and so different from anything that we ordinarily think that we tend to cast about for ways to weaken its force by giving it in attenuated meaning that empties Christianity itself of meaning.'” And I couldn’t agree more with that. Like this feels too hot to handle, this idea that we could partake in the divine nature. It seems too, too big. You know, I am thinking of the the motto of Christendom College, right? Dare to be great. I’m thinking about the virtue of magnanimity, right? This idea of greatness of soul, like it would encompass these ideas. And I was reflecting on how, you know, when I was in school, in the grade school and high school in the seventies and eighties, like, I don’t remember hearing anything about this. I don’t remember hearing about this. I don’t remember reading much about this. It wasn’t until I was into my forties that I really began to grip onto the idea that, whoa, this might be like actually what my destiny is supposed to be. Like, the idea that I could become God, like the union could be such that it would totally transform me. And that was an amazing light bulb moment.

[00:52:04] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Right, right. So this is where a lot of us, I mean I certainly, my catechesis was in the seventies and early eighties and I certainly was a hellion. I was the last person I’m sure that these volunteer teachers wanted in their class. And, you know, it’s funny, we’re all like, well, if someone would just said these things to me at that age. They could have said that to me all they wanted. I would’ve like, would’ve gone, and I was too interested in playing with my friends or partying or whatever it was. Right. But Chris Carson’s wrote a really good introduction to that book. And I think he really hit on it. Like how do you explain what the ultimate framework is, in which all the other frameworks take place, in which all the other stories take place. What is the framework? I love going through it sacramentally, but this is where I really think St. Athanasius really put it all together in that statement, building from St. Irenaeus. Catholics should read paragraph 460 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. And even, my substack is called Catholic 460 after that paragraph. 

[00:53:17] Dr. Peter: Wow. 

[00:53:17] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Because I’m trying to make sure that all talk of deification is being reemphasized and re-infused in Catholic discussion. And so it’s from that paragraph, you’ll find that quote from St. Athanasius. But Chris Carson’s really hit it. He goes through all the word counts of Scripture. And he finally says, what really summarizes it all, and that needs to be focused on, and Chris Carson was the editor for Adoramus Bulletin, is the Athanasian kerygma. “God became man so that man might become God.” Then of course we have to understand it by grace. It’s not by nature. You can’t become God by nature. That’s ridiculous. But by grace, God can endlessly perfect us by knowledge and by love to know, to enter into and live from his knowing and his loving well. What’s inside God’s knowing and loving? Infinite goodness that pulls us out of ourselves into another by which we experience the joys that God himself experiences. This goes on in an unlimited way because as a creature we can be endlessly perfected. And so we can never be bored and we’re always in this ecstatic union of love, and that’s really what has to be the ultimate framework when we’re gonna teach anything. The ultimate framework was, it wasn’t just God made him for himself in some like weird way, but he made us to partake in his infinite goodness, to experience his infinite joys. And part of this means learning to surrender to God. That’s why the Trinitarian Mystery matters. What is the Trinitarian Mystery? And it is the Father gives himself from all eternity without beginning to the Son. Why? Because he beholds the infinite goodness that the Son is, which is the reflection of his own infinite goodness. And so he rests in the infinite good. The Son, beholding the infinite good of the Father in the mystery of the Spirit rests, possesses, rests in the infinite good. And so God gives himself to God from all eternity. And alls God is asking is, Hey, you’re in my image. Do what I do. Well, what do you do? I give myself to God, the Father to the Son, the Son to the Father, in the mystery of the Spirit. And now the Spirit enters us to bring us into the Son to take possession of the Father. And so it’s about participating in the infinite good that is God. It begins in a created manner on earth, and then it’s in God and by God and from God after this, but it begins here.

[00:55:54] Dr. Gerry: I love that. I wanna turn it a little bit, I have a little area to explore. I’m dying to pick your brain a little bit on, and it’s the area of prayer and contemplation recollection and all that. And I know that, you know, so many times people enter into prayer with anxieties and stress, and it’s just a lot of, God, I need this, God, I have that, God, you know, this is going on with me, blah, blah, blah. And I’ve done that. And I think we all do that sometimes, but I’ve also had experiences in prayer that were deeper and more profound and more where I felt connected to him in a deep, deep, spiritual way. And then doing this work, you know, with people, IFS type work and parts work with people and recognizing, oh, you know, their parts are filled with those anxieties or carrying burdens or, you know, are stressed out about things. And so when those parts are kind of in the driver’s seat, that’s what our prayer looks like, right? It’s those manager parts or those stressed out parts, whatever, are in the driver’s seat of our prayer. One of the things I found fascinating is in actually in prayer to pause and pay attention to all those different anxieties, those parts that were holding all those tensions and giving them some space, kind of, we call that unblending, getting a little distance internally in a sense from all these different, you know, competing or conflicted parts, what have you. There is a connection in with our innermost self. And then I have found that with that, from that place, I can connect with God at such a deeper level. And so that discovery, if you will, a realization of that took me into a deep dive in terms of getting to know the mystics of the church and like understanding what were they talking about when they used terms like the eye of the heart or the cave of the heart or the eye of the soul or the heart of hearts and all this. Theresa of Avila’s interior castle and what is it in that center place where she is in that bridal chamber kind of thing or whatnot. And it took me to this place of realizing, you know, I can connect with God at this deeper level when I use some of these techniques. It’s not about a technique getting you to God, ’cause of course, we know that we can set the stage and we can try to pray, but it’s gonna be his grace that’s gonna come or not ultimately. So it’s not really all about tools and techniques, but, on the natural level, I can get my parts to a place where I have the opportunity of connecting better with my inmost self, and therefore having this chance of connecting with God in a deeper level. I know I’ve just said all that, so I’m just curious how that all lands for you, or does that sound surprising or does it make sense to you? Based on what we’ve been talking about.

[00:58:45] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: I’m just following you. And it causes a lot of reflections from what you’re saying. And that would be, you know, so when we’re anxious and we want to pray, but we’re so anxious, we find difficulty. And I think you all speak frequently of, you have to accept your parts, you have to be accepting. And I think what we need to come to is, part of maybe a helpful, and it’s nothing wrong with having practices or methods or whatever. We have to do that, you know, they’re disciplines. And so how do we recollect ourselves in order to enter into prayer? And so I think part of that recollection is, okay, number one, God’s holding me in existence right now. And that means he’s also holding in existence me, which includes all of my parts. And if he’s holding my parts in existence, God’s not afraid of my parts. As anxious, as ashamed, as sinful as I am, God is holding me in existence, which means he’s holding all aspects, including my parts in existence. So God’s not afraid. 

[00:59:44] Dr. Peter: He accepts those parts. It doesn’t mean he endorses disordered affections or impulses or desires, but he can accept the parts as they are.

[00:59:53] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Yeah. So he’s already accepting the parts as they are. He is holding you in existence.

[00:59:57] Dr. Peter: Yeah. 

[00:59:58] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Which means now you need to accept those parts too. I would never say to someone, as you guys never would, I would never say, oh, so you don’t have to change. It’s okay to stay in sin. And of course, no one’s saying that. But what we’re saying is we’re already sinful and God loves us before we love him. So to find peace in your heart that it’s okay to start praying to him, is that okay, I believe in God’s love for me. So since I know he already accepts me in the sense that he’s holding me in existence and he wants what’s good for me, but he can only give to me what’s good in so far as I desire it, prayer becomes my act of giving God what he needs, and that is the desire. God doesn’t force himself on us. And so I can bring that desire of, you know what, God, I want to be made whole and these parts of me that are sinful and these parts of me that are also anxious because I’m sinful and these parts of me that are still acting from shame. I want to be able to recollect myself, which means you’re already accepting me by holding me in existence. You already are willing for me to receive Jesus. And that makes me recognize I should love you. And now I desire this healing. And now I can actually move into true prayer, which is I can, in the words of Saint Teresa of Avila, I can now remember God, instead of being distracted by all the anxieties. I can remember God who loves me. And I can begin to try to mean the words of the our Father vocally. So now I try to bring my memory in union with my will, that I wanna start meaning, I remember who I’m speaking to and I want to mean the words I’m speaking. And that means I’m bringing parts together, where two or three are gathered in my name, memory, knowledge, will, I’m bringing them together into God as my end. And so God is now, where two or three are gathered, God is in my midst. Now, God is entering me and even touching those parts that are sinful and reintegrating them. ‘Cause prayer is where we are reintegrated. And God’s asking us to trust him. And so to accept that he is holding us in existence even though we’re sinful in order that we try to mean those words of the Our Father so that he can be allowed in. And it’s God who reintegrates us.

[01:02:25] Dr. Gerry: You know what’s interesting? In the IFS model, unlike other types of therapies, possibly even other parts therapies, the therapist is trying to connect with the self in order for the self to work with the parts. As opposed to just the therapist talking to a part. Can happen, but it’s not the ideal. The ideal is for the self to be almost the inner healer of the self system. And the way I looked, always looked at it, as that innermost self being, you know, as St. Gregory of Nyssa calls it, the mirror of God. And so that, that reflects God so perfectly, the image of God and so the inmost self is being the best sort of central location, if you will, of the image of God. And so the grace works through the inmost self, is how I would see it. And then the innermost self is that healing agent within to unify the parts. It’s not so much like Jesus typically wouldn’t like jump into your inner world and like rearrange your parts, but he provides grace for you to be able to do that. And it just was that, that was just coming up for me when you were saying what you were saying.

[01:03:40] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: And we as Catholics are instruments of grace. We’re certainly, we’re not talking sacramental grace, but by allowing, by seeking God to indwell in us, by trying to live our lives in such a manner of abiding in Christ, Christ uses us to reopen ideas, share ideas, share hope, share, and these begin to crack open that door by which the light comes in and God uses us to crack open a little bit so that light can get in. God’s not afraid to touch us. God only wants to embrace us, and so he uses us to open up and that’s where psychology is certainly opening up, so that people can be accepting themselves and accepting that they’re loved and begin to let that light and to be that instrument of grace to other people. And so that’s that big, big part what that you’re doing as psychologists of Saint Basil of the Great speaks of how, and as a psychologist seeking holiness, allows God to work more fully through them as God’s instrument. And so while it’s not sacramental grace, it’s still God’s using you as instruments of his grace and love because you’re seeking healing. And how can healing be anything other than an act of love?

[01:04:59] Dr. Peter: Well, you know, I’m thinking about this too because sometimes I think it’s easier for parts to take in love somebody other than God. And ultimately I think all love comes from God, right? So it’s not like, you know, Gerry, you, or Matthew, you, or I can just kind of generate that in our garage, we got our own little like love generator and we can do it on our own. Ultimately it all comes from God, but sometimes because of parts experiences and the way they’ve interpreted those experiences into sort of negative projections onto God, negative God images, that it’s easier to tolerate being loved by someone else. And it sort of whets the appetite for love, kind of opens the possibility. I’ve had clients, for example, who don’t believe that God loves them, but who do believe that I love them, you know, and you know. But when they begin to accept that love, when they begin to take that in, some healing happens, some ordering happens, it begins to open up possibilities, parts begin to engage more with the faculty of imagination, might connect more with the idea that God might love them. If I can love them, how can God not love them? If God is more powerful than me, bigger than me, better than, you know me, than the therapist, right? Like, so I think sometimes this idea that we can love in a way that might be acceptable to a part of the person, whereas a direct connection with God just couldn’t, they couldn’t handle it. I remember being in high school and, you know, you mentioned the crucifix, like looking at the crucifix, like that did not draw me closer to God. I had parts that were, what they encountered was just a sense of deep guilt. Like the kind of guilt that like, okay, I did this right, because somehow I got the idea that, you know, that the tiniest sin would’ve led Jesus to do the same thing on the cross, you know, to die on the cross in the same way. And it was like, okay. So it just kinda shut me down, right? I couldn’t start with that. I couldn’t look at that as an expression of love. I needed to be loved in other ways to be able to open that up to me. Does that make sense? I don’t know if I’m explaining that very well. 

[01:07:10] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Yeah, the cross. I mean, depending on what your current image of God may be, it could feel more like a condemnation, rather than a pledge of love. I can see that for sure. It goes back to the old joke, right? You know, the Protestant comes into a Catholic school, he is in math class, and he sees Jesus on the plus sign, and he is like, man, I better get my math right, you know?

[01:07:34] Dr. Peter: Oh man. 

[01:07:37] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Yeah, we certain we definitely need to see, rather it is, we have to begin to see the crucifix rightly as God giving himself to us. And there’s a very beautiful passage, is where I love how Joseph Ratzinger before he becomes Cardinal and he is writing his Introduction to Christianity and he speaks about, you know, how Christianity really flips all religion on their heads, where all other religions are about sacrificing to God, but in Christianity, God actually sacrifices himself for us and, in a sense, to us, not as gods, but as the lover of mankind. That’s why we call ’em the philanthropos, philo, the lover,  philanthropos, the lover of mankind. And he is giving himself to us and for us in sacrifice. And that’s again another unbearable thing. Like, no, God couldn’t love me like that. What’s the real beauty when you accept, well, that is the love, actually. And I think what helps me believe in that love is the most difficult teaching of Jesus that we all just ignore and run away from, and that is the beatitudes. Blessed are the poor. Blessed are the meek. Blessed are those who mourn. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst. Blessed are the merciful. Blessed are those pure of heart, single of heart, pure of heart. Blessed are the peacemakers. This is what it means to be a human, seeking God’s will in a broken world. And it’s the autobiography of Jesus. He’s not giving us something other than himself when he gives those beatitudes. It is the autobiography of the life of Jesus Christ, of God giving himself in order that through his poverty, he can make peace between God and man by coming in weakness to man who sees God as someone rejecting him. So Jesus is the sign of God saying, look, I don’t reject you and I don’t condemn you. You have Moses. You wanna be condemned? You have Moses. I have come to save you. And in coming to save you, look at my weakness. Don’t be afraid to come to me. I do not condemn you. Please come to me. And that’s what he is actually listing as his life. And then inviting us to not be afraid of that life, to not be afraid of believing in God’s love and so giving ourselves over to living in God’s love. We’re gonna start looking a lot like Jesus and how the strong reject this goodness because they misunderstand that love makes us weak. And there’s nothing wrong with love making us weak for others. It makes us willing to suffer and sacrifice. So Nietzsche has it all wrong. He has it all backwards. That it’s actually that to love and suffer for others, the greatest strength to have, to become meek, to be willing to endure to save others, that instead of destroying them, you put your power at serving their development. This is love. 

[01:10:57] Dr. Gerry: Thank you. That’s beautiful. I know that it was a very grace-filled moment as a child for me not really being properly catechized whatsoever or even going to church or being taken to church. But the crucifix was actually a moment of tremendous grace and conversion for me as a child because I perceived in it Christ understood my suffering. He understood my pain, and that he was with me in that pain. And that somehow I instinctively received, and it was an incredible grace. So I love that. I think that’s beautiful, and I think there’s no other, speaking of other religions, like there’s no other religion that has an understanding of suffering where God is with us in the suffering as opposed to just, you know, like Buddhism or something where we somehow have to just transcend the suffering. Here we actually walk through the suffering with God. Anyhow, but now I did want to ask you about something. There was something in your book that I liked and, well, there’s a lot on there I liked, but that jumped out at me that I hadn’t recalled myself. You were quoting St. Gregory of Nyssa, who’s one of my favorites and talking about the kingdom is the Holy Spirit. I don’t know, I was just really moved by that. I just thought, wow, I hadn’t thought about it. I had sort of influenced a little bit by maybe, I don’t know, N. T. Wright or some other writers to really grasp the idea of the kingdom of God and as this, like, the mission of God. Right. Of course. And, as opposed to the other program, right, of death. But to think of the kingdom as the Holy Spirit on some level. I don’t know. Just very inspiring. 

[01:12:38] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: Hebrews 6:4 talks about we’re supposed to become partakers, “partakers of the Holy Spirit.” To be a partaker. Well, the Holy Spirit is God. And so to be a partaker of the Holy Spirit is to be a “partaker of the divine nature.” 2 Peter 1:4. So I just was teaching this for New Testament, and this is where I always love to teach in this passage where at the end of Matthew 16, Jesus says, there are some of you standing here who will not taste death until you see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. And people misunderstand this. They think he was talking about the end of the world. Even early Christians misunderstood. That’s why Peter corrects the misunderstanding in his second letter. And 2 Peter, chapter one, he begins around verse 18, the correction. He says, I’m about to die. In verse 14, I wanna make sure you understand something. We already saw Jesus coming. It was on top of the mountain, and he starts talking about the transfiguration. So he is saying, you know, make sure you understand that prophecy rightly. In Matthew, Mark and Luke, the synoptic gospels, every time after Jesus says, some of you standing here will not taste death till you see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom, in every gospel, three verses later or two verses later, or one verse later, is the transfiguration. In other words, he was talking about the transfiguration. Well, what is the transfiguration? It’s where he reveals the divinity that was always in his soul, the divinity he wants us to receive from his contact with his humanity. Well, what is that divinity? It’s the Holy Spirit. So what was he showing him? He was showing them the coming of the kingdom. He was showing them the mystery of the divinity and Holy Spirit that he wanted to communicate to us as the new temple. He was showing that in him heaven and earth were joined, and that by coming into communion with his humanity and desiring union with him, you would become a partaker in his divinity of the Holy Spirit. So the kingdom is the spirit, and therefore, that’s why the early Christians, we have manuscripts of St. Luke and Maximus the Confessor discusses this in which instead of the, Our Father saying in Greek, thy basileia come, you know, or you know, hallowed be thy name. Thy basileia come, thy kingdom come. There are transcripts of Luke in which it clearly says, thy pneuma come. Kingdom and spirit were interchangeable because you can’t be made a son in the Son without the Holy Spirit entering you and adopting you and giving you birth from above. And so it’s the Holy Spirit. If we possess the Holy Spirit in that way, we possess the sonship. If we possess the sonship, we’ve become members of the kingdom. So the kingdom is the spirit, and that’s what we’re praying for when we pray for the kingdom. Fill us with your spirit so that we can be brought into the kingdom. Cause the kingdom comes from above, not of this world.

[01:15:49] Dr. Gerry: I love it. I love it. I named my practice after the Transfiguration, so I’m a big fan. 

[01:15:56] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: That’s wonderful. I’m so jealous. I have a colleague who was born on the Feast of the Transfiguration. 

[01:16:01] Dr. Gerry: Well, it was a sign ’cause I started going, I found a perfect church. It’s an Eastern Catholic church that I’ve been going to for years, and I didn’t plan it, became a member on August 6th, I think it is, the Feast of the Transfiguration. So it was just a sign that when I started my practice that I was to name it that. But you also say something, again, I just thought was really cool, in your book about when our freedom reaches its purpose of achieving infinite freedom and possessing God. And I just thought what a different way to look at it is that we want to achieve freedom to be able to connect with God. Like we’re always thinking about it in the opposite way or something like that. But I should be praying for the freedom to actually, you know, be good if you will, to be able to connect with God so fully, to receive the Holy Spirit in that way. Like, anyway, that just jumped out at me, thought I would share.

[01:16:54] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: That’s a bit of a meditation on Galatians 5:1, where St. Paul says, for freedom, Christ has set us free. And that’s why Ratzinger in, I’m calling him Ratzinger, ’cause at the time he was just a father, Joseph Ratzinger when he wrote it. But he said, Christianity is really the religion of true freedom. In other words, we’re not in oppression. We’re trying to set man free because the truth is what makes us free. And so this is where I like to say to people, because we can think of God’s will as oppressive instead of God’s will is your development. God’s will is your movement from potency into activity and perfection and flourishing and fulfillment. And so I’ll say to them, who’s more free? God or you? And most people will say, well, okay, God’s more free. And I’ll say, if God’s more free than you, what if you could become more like God? Would you be losing your freedom or gaining freedom? They’re like, oh, I hadn’t thought of it that way. I guess if I’m becoming more like him, then I’m entering into freedom instead of losing human freedom, and so they become less afraid of saying, thy will be done.

[01:18:04] Dr. Peter: Hmm. Yep. 

[01:18:04] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: And being able to mean thy will be done. And so, I like that emphasis on we are the real religion of freedom, ’cause truth is not opposed to your freedom. Truth is what sets freedom free. ‘Cause I mean, you of all people would know, we want people living in the truth. We want people living in reality. We don’t want the person standing in a corner muttering to themselves because that’s not reality and therefore they’re not experiencing freedom. So they need to get into reality for their freedom to be set free.

[01:18:38] Dr. Peter: Well, this has been fascinating and you know, we could go on I’m sure for much longer, but I’m wondering if each of you has a key takeaway, something that you would like our audience to take home, to hold onto, to remember, to be able to bring up, when they consider this whole topic of deification, theosis, what message would you want our audience to remember?

[01:19:13] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: I think something we haven’t exactly said that I think I tried to emphasize maybe in this book. I write a lot of essays too. But, you know, if there’s anything good in what I’m saying, I’m just synthesizing the Church Fathers and Doctors, right? So I’m doing my best to synthesize the church. So I would go back to what St. John of the Cross says, which I think is the most important. And that is that love makes the lover want to make the beloved equal to himself, and that’s all God is really trying to do. God the lover, we’re the beloved. He wants to make us equal to himself. He was never afraid of us becoming like God. He made us in his image and likeness. He wants the image, which is dynamic, to develop in perfection, in greater likeness, which is loving as God loves. That’s the whole purpose of the Sermon on the Mount. It was said to you of old, but I say to you… He’s saying, you need to stop loving as humans love, because if you’re gonna live from divine life, you gotta live as God loves, to let God in and to live from God. You gotta start loving as God loves and not be afraid. And so it’s really the saying of John of the Cross. The lover wants to make the beloved equal to himself. And so deification is saying, God became man that man might become God by grace. And so what it’s really saying is, it’s a contradiction to say God can make you God by nature. That’s just ridiculous. God has no beginning. In order for a creature to exist, they have to have a beginning. They will never be the same definition. There’ll be an infinite distance. But God closes that distance by giving of himself, revealing himself, dying for us, so that by this knowledge, we can fall in love with him and not be afraid to stop living by human love, to let go of living merely by a human way and enter into the divine way of love, which Jesus is the way. And so the lover is trying to make the beloved equal to himself by asking us to believe in Jesus’s love for us.

[01:21:34] Dr. Peter: Wow. 

[01:21:35] Dr. Gerry: Beautiful.

[01:21:36] Dr. Peter: Dr. Gerry, what have you got? 

[01:21:39] Dr. Gerry: I don’t know. I can’t really top that. I do think that. 

[01:21:42] Dr. Matthew Tsakanikas: I’ve heard you say beautiful things, so you can.

[01:21:44] Dr. Gerry: Oh, thank you. Thank you. I don’t know. I just, I love the fact that what was brought out today about God loving us first, and I feel like what you emphasized today, Dr. Tsakanikas, if I can say it right, is really the gospel. And yes, some of it is in what some people might be unfamiliar with some of the language, even though you’re drawing right from Scripture and you’re drawing right from the early Church Fathers and even the Catechism. It might seem lofty, in some ways, but it isn’t. It’s actually foundational to our faith and it is important for us in a sense to evangelize, at least from a parts work perspective, all of our parts. ’cause this is good news for every single one of our parts. And so even the ones that are far away from it for some reason right now, or whatever exiles we have in our system, or whatever shame we’re carrying or whatever stuff we’re stuck in. Every part needs to hear the message we heard today in order to bring them home and to bring them into harmony and bring the system into unity so that the whole system, the whole self system, can glorify God and love God and live in this freedom and live in this love. That’s what I would throw out.

[01:22:59] Dr. Peter: Oh, love it. I love it. And my takeaway is just that I think most well-formed Catholics understand that real love is given freely. You know, it’s given freely. But in our fallen human states, in our fallen human condition, it’s not received without a cost. In other words, I think what so many people’s parts want is sort of like a Hallmark movie love, where the love just comes naturally easily. You don’t have to change, you don’t have to give anything up, you know, everything just works out like almost magically. And I wanna appreciate that if we really are going to receive the love of God, it’s gonna burn away things in us. It’s gonna burn away things that are sinful, vices, it’s gonna burn away things that are not sinful, but are disordered, you know, that are not properly oriented. And it can also ask us to give up goods in order to create that space. And so just an appreciation for parts of us that really struggle to receive that love, you know, that really struggle with the tension around the sacrifice that’s made in receiving the love of God, the paying of the costs in a sense of the change, the transformation that that love is going to affect, and how that can just be really daunting. It can be painful. It can lead to a lot of trepidation. And to appreciate that parts of us carry that. So just to kind of acknowledge that and own that and accept that.

[01:24:47] Dr. Peter: Well, if you liked this episode, like this episode. Give us a thumbs up on our YouTube channel. If you’re on Apple podcasts, give us a written review. Let us know that you liked it. You can subscribe to the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast on the podcast platform of your choice. You can join the conversation on our channel at Interior Integration 4 Catholics,  Interior Integration 4 Catholics, on YouTube. You can check out Dr. Tsakanikas’s 2025 book, A Catechesis of Deification, Transfiguration, and the Luminous Mysteries. That was put out by En Route Books & Media. We have a link in the description on our YouTube page. He also just published a brief companion volume, and that’s titled Meditations on Deification and the Luminous Mysteries. Check that out, because in that little volume, Meditations on Deification and the Luminous Mysteries, he invites us to respond to the call, to sharing God’s divine life through Christ as partakers of the Holy Spirit. It’s a wonderful little volume. It focuses on human needs as well as spiritual needs. And I wanted to like offer you something that can help you make Internal Family Systems, parts and systems thinking a part of your daily life. Just a little step, and that is our sister podcast, Scripture for Your Inner Outcasts, that’s a daily podcast. It’s only about five minutes long and you can pick it up wherever you listen to podcasts, Scripture for Your Inner Outcasts. And you can make it a daily habit to connect with the liturgical life of the church through the sacred Scripture in the readings of the daily Mass. But in this, so many of us at Souls and Hearts bring in IFS and parts work, and it’s especially focused on your exiled parts, your inner outcasts. It’s the only podcast I know that specifically speaks to your inner lost sheep, to your inner prodigals, your inner lepers, your lame, deaf and blind parts, your inner tax collectors, your inner prostitutes, all those parts of you deemed unworthy and unacceptable by your protector parts. This podcast, Scripture for Inner Outcasts, is for those exiles.

[01:27:09] Dr. Peter: The Resilient Catholics Community is also about to reopen for new members all during the month of June. If you are a Catholic, who sees how important structure is for your personal human formation, if you want to shore up that natural human foundation for your spiritual life, if you wanna overcome the natural level obstacles to sharing deeply in God’s divine nature as his beloved little son or beloved little daughter, and if parts and systems thinking make sense to you, consider applying to the Resilient Catholics Community, the RCC. The RCC offers that structured program step by step in a community of like-minded Catholics in small groups flourishing and thriving as we journey together toward loving God wholeheartedly, toward loving God with all our parts, toward loving God in such a way that we accept his invitation to partake in his nature, and we love our neighbor as ourselves. Check it all out at soulsandhearts.com/rcc. You can also get on our interest list so you have all the updates when the applications open in June. Hundreds of Catholics have found the RCC to be helpful in their human formation, and we use the best of both secular and spiritual resources to help you experience what love is at a bones level, at a heart level. Why? So you can love wholeheartedly with all your parts. It’s not just for your head, it’s for your heart, it’s for all your being. Okay, check it out. RCC landing page, soulsandhearts.com/rcc. We have a 19 minute experiential exercise to help you discern whether it’s a good idea to apply to the RCC. And even when you apply, there’s a mutual discernment process that lasts some weeks. It includes the PartsFinder Pro. That’s a set of 23 measures that are designed to help you come to understand 10 to 15 of your parts, managers, firefighters, exiles, how they relate to your innermost self, and how your parts relate to each other. You’ll get feedback on your  PartsFinder Pro, your PFP, through a six to seven page report. You’ll discuss it in a 15 minute Zoom interview with a Souls and Hearts staff member. All of that is included in the $499 application fee. If there’s financial need, we have scholarships. Think about it. Are you ready to take that step? Are you ready to really invest? We accept new applications every February, June, and October.

[01:29:43] Dr. Peter: There’s an online workshop for those Catholic formators new to IFS. It’s called Catholic Parts Work in Human Formation. It will be held on the evening of June 10th, 2026 at 8:00 PM Eastern Time. You can check that out at soulsandhearts.com/fff. And that stands for the Formation for Formators Community. There’s also a retreat for Catholic Formators, so that’s priests, counselors, spiritual directors, coaches. It’s gonna be August 10th to the 13th, 2026 at the Mother of the Redeemer Retreat Center in Bloomington, Indiana. And our theme this year is, “Authentic being and authentic relating.” This retreat focuses on you finding and loving you and more of your parts, including the parts you have not yet encountered your exiles. Check it all out, soulsandhearts.com/fff. And finally, if you are a regular listener to these podcast episodes or if you take in the semi-monthly reflections, you are certainly welcome to reach out to me during my conversation hours. Those are every Tuesday and Thursday from 4:30 PM to 5:30 PM Eastern time. And that’s on my cell, 317-567-9594. I love hearing from my listeners. Feel free to reach out to me. Those are private conversations. If I don’t answer right away, know that you can leave a message and I’ll call you back when I’m off of the last call. So, it has been such a pleasure to be with the the two of you. Thank you for being with us, Dr. Tsakanikas. It’s just so good to have you, Dr. Gerry. So good to have you as well. What a wonderful time together and to be blessed. And so with that, just want to draw this to a close by invoking our patroness and our patrons at Souls and Hearts. Our Lady, our Mother, Untier Knots, pray for us. St. Joseph, pray for us. St. John the Baptist, pray for us.